Hi. I am tiling my bathroom floor and have an old cast iron flange. It only has two holes for the lag bolts and no others. The old toilet was bolted down with these two bolts in the back and two screws driven into the subfloor in the front. The flange and drain pipe is "rock" solid. All online sites that I have visited stress the need to screw the flange into the flooring--this simply isn't possible with this type of flange. Is this style of flange designed to hold the weight of the toilet rather than the flooring?

I will need to extend the flange as I add backer board and tile. The current bottom of the flange is already fairly flush with the subfloor. Also, the flange is not exactly level--is that a problem? If it is, will replacement take care of that? Does this flange need to be replaced? That seems like a daunting task!

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If the flange isn't at the proper height and orientation, as well as being secured when it comes time to install the toilet, you will have nothing but problems and increase the possibility of leaks and water damage. What kind of access do you have to the piping underneath?

a cast iron flange that used lead and oakum for a connection does not need screws.

Ditto. The only additional work needed is to bring it flush with the finish floor thru the use of shim/s.

Packy,

true, but misleading

the older toilets were separately bolted to the floor THEMSELVES

they had 4 holes

OP:

the piping should be modified to accept a modern flange installed at the new elevation

NOT a daunting task for a plumber - 'how' will be determined by the actual on-site conditions

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"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

REplacing it is about a half hour job for a competent plumber and it does not need to be "screwed down".

quote; the older toilets were separately bolted to the floor THEMSELVES

The old 'washdown" toilets had a long footpring, so they used closet screws in the front to stabilize them. The screws had NOTHING to do with the water seal. In fact, we usually used stove bolts to dummy the front screws.

Thanks guys. There seems to be a lot of conflicting opinions about theses types of flanges. My thinking was to extend the flange with extenders so the bottom is flush with tile and then use an extra thick wax seal to help with the leveling. It's about 1/4 inch off level on one side. Perhaps it would be best for me to have a plumber come out and inspect the flange before tiling and then afterwards to install the toilet.



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If you have access underneath, it would be easier to cut the drain, install the new floor, then install the flange; doing so would position it correctly and securely and eliminate guesswork.

An older quote from Packy (emphasis added)

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get another plumber. hundreds of thousands of 4 bolt toilets have been replaced with 2 bolt toilets.
as long as the flange underneath is well secured to the floor and within the proper distances from the wall, there is ABSOLUTELY no problem.
of course, if the piping below is leaking, cracked or otherwise deficient, then that is another story. BUT, it has nothing to do with the 2hole-4hole question.

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"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638



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ps.

the reason that the (C.I. piping) flange was not bolted to the subfloor was to allow for expansion and contraction of the CI pipe w/o moving or cracking the bowl

said expansion (if properly installed pipe) was very very little, but present none-the-less

it could expand upwards ever so slightly against the wax but could not travel downwards as it was flush to the floor

the 'horn' outlet (still in use today) allowed for this

therefor the toilet had an extra 2 holes in order to be SECURED to the floor

(even though our 'master' plumbers often 'dummied' said attachment)

==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

IT would be a HUNDRED times "easier" for a plumber to crack the old flange off, (about 5 minutes work), and then reattach a new one after the floor is done, (about another 20 minutes most of it to melt the lead).

The reason the flange was NOT bolted to the floor is because the weight of the cast iron and the solidarity of the lead oakum joints did Not allow it to move in any direction.

wrong

it did, in fact, move

the coefficient of expansion for CI is different than for china/porcelain

this is fact, not opinion

? how much it moved ?

since the bowl did NOT actually contact the flange there WAS relative movement unless the bowl moved with it (which the additional 'floor' bolts or grouting prevented)






==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638



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bernabeu, maybe the unions put screws into a cast iron flange that is leaded in place but the rest of the known world does not.
BTW, other than his rooting for a baseball team that perennially looses their first 11 games thus dooming them to the second division, my friend from AZ is seldom wrong.

LOL. This is a contentious issue indeed. I still don't know how to proceed. I dont think these things were ever intended to be bolted down. This thing has been fine for 60 years until a bad plumber came out and took the toilet out and its never been the same since. My concern is that I bring a plumber out and he's a relatively young guy and since he doesnt know much about lead and oakum and such that he'll just want to break it out and replace it. I'm fine with replacing it but I want to know its being done because its necessary. Well...even a young plumber knows more than I so I suppose I should give one a call.

How much HOT WATER goes through a toilet to cause ANY expansion. You are tilting with windmills.

quote; Well...even a young plumber knows more than I so I suppose I should give one a call.

Maybe so, or maybe NO, you just don't know. I know some plumbers who have NEVER worked with cast iron and even fewer who know how to make a lead/oakum joint.

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LOL. This is a contentious issue indeed. I still don't know how to proceed. I dont think these things were ever intended to be bolted down.

Correct - they were used with 4 bolt toilets which were, themselves, bolted down.

This allowed the flange to 'float', albeit ever so slightly, slightly inside the wax seal.

==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

hj,

not hot water poured into the toilet but:

ambient building temperature changes which, over time, could be 40 degrees or more

(winter 60, summer 100, heat system breakdown 40, etc.)

near boiling spaghetti water poured into the kitchen sink

etc


we all actually do know that piping expands and contracts

==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

quote; they were used with 4 bolt toilets which were, themselves, bolted down.

THe rear bolts were fastened to the flange the same as they are today, and had NOTHING to do with "expansion", or "free floating".

quote; we all actually do know that piping expands and contracts

But "thermal mass" dictates that it would take a LOT of heat to cause a cast iron item to expand.

Quote

THe rear bolts were fastened to the flange the same as they are today, and had NOTHING to do with "expansion", or "free floating".

Nope

The back of the flange rested directly on the tile - could not move downwards

The toilet was bolted to the flange AND the floor - toilet could not move at all

No part of the toilet itself touched the flange

The flange could move UPWARDS and LATERALLY relative to the toilet SLIGHTLY as the bolts merely held DOWNWARDS against the flange

This exact point was why they used a wax ring and not a solid connection


(to show 'horn discharge' of toilet into flange)


ps. the lack of present day attention to this very point explains a great deal

==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638



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I've got a similar situation but the CI flange is still perfectly good with 2 holes both in excellent condition, no rust and no screws. The flange does not appear to have been bolted to the the floor; at least not to the subfloor. The underlayment was ripped out and I've no clue if the bowl was bolted to the underlayment. Cutting the bolts to the tank was a total b*tch but removing the bowl was a piece of cake.

At any rate I've got a new Toto Drake sitting by waiting for me to lay the new underlayment and flooring. A plumber dropped by and after clearing away the wax he assumed the threading in the holes of the flange is no good and therefore he said he would drill and rethread. Given that does need to be done what do you experts suggest? I've got a new 3/4" underlayment I can put bolts through if that's a suggestion.