Specific question: After a joint (3/4 inch copper pipe and elbow in my case) are soldered and cooled, can I safely reheat and rotate the elbow? Or, am I asking for leaks?

I found that only a little heat was necessary before I could rotate the elbow. However, a lot more heat was needed before the solder in my hand melted and got sucked into the joint. I did sand and flux the area a little before resoldering.

If I stopped the heat after I was able to rotate the elbow, but before the solder in my hand could melt, I think I would disturb the solder and create channels in the solder for water to leak. By heating more, so the solder in my hand would melt, I think any 'channels' created from rotating the elbow would melt so I would essentially have a new soldered joint. Agree??
----------------------------------------------------------------
You don't need to read the rest, but I would appreciate it. Maybe you could give me some advice.

Background: Unemployed. Little money, buts lots of time and patience. I am replacing the service line from street to house. I have soldered pipe a little in the past, but with inconsistent results. This time I spent weeks studying the art of plumbing/soldering copper and have practiced soldering a little before the real thing. I feel more confident now soldering on the bench, but I don't feel comfortable soldering in the trench for my new service line...too many chances for dirt/rocks to stick to the flux paste, too little space, wind blowing, etc. So I did most of my prep work on the bench.

The riser (vertical run of pipe) for my hose bibb starts from the service line in the trench about 5 inches away from the exterior house wall. Instead of installing a few elbows to get the riser running closer and vertically parallel to the wall (I thought more fittings means more chances for leaks), I decided to tilt the riser over to the wall (about 20 degree from vertical).

After my 'dry fit' assembly looked nice in the field, I was ready to move it to the bench. But before moving the assembly I drew some reference lines on the pipe and elbow with a marker so I could dissemble, flux, and put the assembly back together at same angle. Unfortunately, I learned that matching up the lines was difficult. Since the riser was relatively long, any little rotation of the elbow moved the bibb a lot in relation to the wall. I finally gave up trying to get the angle just right so the bibb would just touch the house wall. I lined up the marks the best I could and soldered it. Damn Murphy's Law...the angle was wrong causing the pipe assembly to sit wrong in the trench.

I thought I could either cut the pipe and install a coupling, which would allow me another chance to get the angle right or I could heat up the joint and rotate the elbow a little. I decided to heat up and rotate the elbow a little. I sanded and fluxed the area a little knowing that I might have to add some more solder. I was surprised at how little heat was required before I could rotate the elbow on the pipe. However, the solder in my hand was not melting. In fact, it took almost as much heat as the original soldering before the solder in my hand would melt...(this makes sense now, why would I expect less heat the second time around). I put in another 3/4 inch of solder. Not sure where it went. Maybe it balled up inside the joint. Anyway, I took it out to the field and the angle was wrong again. So I did it again. Heat, rotate, heat some more until some more solder got sucked into joint. Angle looks acceptable now. Despite all this, the joint looks good. Do you think it will work? Should I cut this elbow out and start over? For the future, what should I do...I guess somethings just need to be field fitted.

I am not familiar with FL codes but here in MD, a solder joint is not permitted on an underground water service line. We must use a mechanical joint such as a compression fitting for any joints underground.

if against code don't do it

however, re: soldering

heat the joint until internal solder melts, roll fitting

apply COPIOUS amount of flux (even if you 'burn' the brush)

apply more solder

you will be fine

==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638



Edited 1 times.

geesh bernabeu, this is getting silly. two times in one day that i'm agreeing with y'all..

O ~ M ~ G

==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

I have never heard of that prohibition, except under concrete floors inside a building. We solder 'underground' all the time to make connections or extend water lines. If the solder joint is made properly the first time, there will be no "voids or channels" when you reheat and rotate it.

One more time and I am going to start building an ark, because the end of time will be near.

actually, to be serious, Packy and I probably agree on almost all piping matters

so

how many cubits long do we need ?

==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

great minds run alike..

have you already bought the copper? I would get the compression fittings (er like dresser fittings, but not) and run hdpet (plastic pipe) (instead..(providing code allows). No solder joints underground allowed here. ANd yeah copper is awesome-but I find Plastic more foregiving and life expectancy longer. Run a tracer wire.

Thank you HJ. Sounds like you have successfully heated and rotated many fittings (probably without adding more solder).

I think I found out why only a little heat is required to rotate the soldered fitting, and much more heat is required to melt the solder in hand. Solder has two melting points. At the lower temperature, the solder turns into a mush or paste. Microscopically it's a sea of liquid metal with many islands of solid metal. So when you rotate the fitting you are moving those solid islands around. When it cools the sea turns into solid ground too.

So from your experience and what I found out, sounds like I didn't need to resolder. Just heat a little and spin.

from my experience you will need to add solder.

Thank you, Packy. So unlike HJ, your experience suggests that you can't just heat a little and spin. You need to heat more and resolder.

Have you had problems with leaky joints that were just heated and spun? Or, are you just being extra careful like I was?

First you have to define whether a cubit is 18" or not. Next, where are you going to find Gopher wood?

quote; (probably without adding more solder).

You always do that as a precaution. But, I have also made solder joints just using the "tinning flux" in an emergency, (like miles and miles from any supply point and needing to make one joint without a roll of solder available).

You must have extrapolated that from my reply. I was just commenting on whether it could be done and whether there would be voids. I did NOT tell you HOW I would do it. It it was a "bad" joint, then there would be voids whether you added solder or not. It would have NOTHING to do with whether you reheated the joint and rotated it.



Edited 1 times.

Sorry, I did extrapolate because I was trying to clarify the point. Thanks for responding...now I know your thoughts.

So just 'warming and spinning' a good soldered joint could be done, BUT it's safer and more common to resolder.

By the way, I found an old thread which discusses the same thing. In fact, you are in it...[www.plbg.com]



Edited 1 times.

"... Next, where are you going to find Gopher wood?"

And after that, you'll need to coat it with 'pitch', if it can be found.

Oh, pitch can be found, but then you need to find guys to apply it. We were doing a house in Chicago during the summertime, and it had a pitch, (NOT pitched), roof. The roofers were walking around like a picket line with signs reading "No pitch roofs" because it is even worse to work with than tar in hot weather.

Quote:

Author: m & m (MD)
I am not familiar with FL codes but here in MD, a solder joint is not permitted on an underground water service line. We must use a mechanical joint such as a compression fitting for any joints underground.

Can anyone tell me why that is? isn't a compression fitting more prone to leak than a solder joint?

I am not familiar with anywhere that prohibits a solder joint underground, as long as it is not inside a building under concrete. I sometimes wonder if those who quote that prohibition are misquoting a regulation.

We are also not allowed to have a solder joint underground. Brazed or Mechanical only.

And again I ask WHY??? Anyone know the logic behind this reg??

That is a requirement for joints underground INSIDE a structure, so I am wondering if someone, in their exuberance, has expanded it to mean outside also. Outside there is absolutely no reason for the prohibition, (I have been making underground solder joints for over 60 years in Illinois, Michigan, and Arizona), because even if the joint fails it does not cause any structural problem.



Edited 1 times.