Hey everyone!
I'm a DIYer from Wyoming who know very little about plumbing. I am installing a new tile floor in my half bath, and have a question regarding my toilet flange. Since the new floor will be approximately 3/4" higher than the old linoleum floor, I was pretty sure that I would need to raise the toilet flange. So, I had a plumber come over and take a look at my situation. He said that yes I did need to raise the flange by approximately the difference between the old floor and new floor. So we raised the flange, and the bottom should be about flush with the new floor. I asked the plumber if the tile needed to be installed under the flange. He informed that since the toilet waste pipe and flange do not actually support the weight of the toilet that the tile didn't need to be installed under the flange.
So, at this point I am in the process of putting in a new subfloor. I cut the new piece of plywood to fit around the toilet waste pipe. However, since my half bath is a little cramped on space, and the plywood piece was difficult to maneuver, I had to cut the opening for the waste pipe a little larger than the pipe in order to get it to fit around the pipe. I have not attached this piece of plywood to the subfloor yet. My concern now is that I cut the opening too large, and will not be able to screw the flange into the subfloor to secure it before installing the toilet once the project is done. Here are some photos:





MY QUESTION IS THIS: Is the opening in the subfloor around the toilet waste pipe and flange too large? Should I try to cut another piece of plywood to fit more tightly around the pipe? OR is the opening just fine?

Thanks for your help!

wyoPLUMBnovice

The flange needs to be secured to the top of the finished floor to prevent any movement of the toilet or it will leak. I would have both the subfloor and tiles (or the equivelent spacer thickness extend under the flange. I would also screw the flange down with #12 stainless steel or, brass screws long enough to grip through all layers of flooring.

I would also strongly recommend getting rid of that PVC flange and installing one that has a stainless steel ring.[www.plumbingsupply.com]



You're doing a lot of work there and I'm sure you want it to last a long time.

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Thanks Redwood for the speedy reply. I will call the plumber back this week and have him install the stainless steel reinforced flange that you suggested. I will also re-cut the plywood to obtain a better fit around the pipe. Great advice, thanks again.

wyoPLUMBnovice

Your welcome, Your floor will love you for it!

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Note that as redwood suggested, not only the plywood, but the tile, should be UNDER the flange. In the picture, if you are going with ceramic tile, the flange is a little low. This would not be a catastrophe, because flange extenders and waxless rings can compensate. But if you redo the flange, getting it at exactly the right height would make sense.

DO NOT install the flange until after the tile floor is installed and grouted. Do cut the sub-floor closer to the pipe, and DO use the flange with a stainless steel ring that Redwood pictured. It is, by a wide margin, the very best flange for your situation.

If you remove the cup from the flange and post a picture of the inside of the pipe we will be able to recommend the exact course of action you should take.

BTW, this question is the most frequently asked question on this forum and is almost always asked too late. You have an opportunity to do this right and have a sturdy leak free toilet for a very long time. It is very important that things are done in the proper order.

Thanks all! I will take a picture of the inside of the pipe and post it in a few minutes.

wyoPLUMBnovice

Here are the photos you requested:







The inside of the pipe is quite nasty......smells terrible too.

wyoPLUMBnovice

Yea! I smell it from here... What have you been eating? Put the cup back in!

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It's hard to tell ... is that 3" pipe or 4" pipe? Hoping it's 4".

jerco, the pipe is 4".

wyoPLUMBnovice

Great! Cut the top of that flange off any way you can. You can leave the part that is glued to the street ell, it is inconsequential. That will make your flooring work MUCH easier. After the tile floor is complete and grouted, you will be able to use the flange in Redwood's post and glue it to the inside of that street ell. You can purchase that flange (3"x4" from the big orange box or from the sponsor of this site [www.plumbingsupply.com]. The outside of the flange is meant to fit inside 4" pipe.

After You glue the flange, you can drill through the tile and screw down the flange with stainless steel screws. Then use solid brass toilet bolts (not brass plated steel bolts) and a wax ring without a plastic horn to install the toilet and you will be good to go for many many years to come.

Any questions?

jerco, I do have some questions. You wrote:

"You can leave the part that is glued to the street ell, it is inconsequential."

What is a "street ell"?

Also, are you suggesting that I can (and should) install the new flange AFTER the tile is installed?

Thanks for your advice!

I don't know if Smockman down at big box has the stainless steel flanges... I may be wrong I try to avoid him.

Make sure that those closet bolts are 5/16" Dia Brass Closet Bolts without a break off cut in them. When ever I have used them the right spot is always with the nut right on top of the breakoff cut with threads stripping and needing to be 1/2 a turn tighter.

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redwood, the closet bolts are the bolts on the flange that secure the toilet to the flange, right?

The "pipe" that your existing flange is glued to is actually a PVC fitting called a street ell. It is the same inside diameter as 4" PVC pipe. That is perfect for the flange in Redwoods picture because it is meant to fit around 3" pipe or inside of 4" pipe.

Yes. Redo your plywood and cut out a circle for the closet flange. Then install your backerboard and tile. After the grouting is the best time to install the new flange. The Stainless Steel ring of the flange can be spun around so the bolts will be in the right position. Once that is where you want it, you can drill through the tile (just through the tile) with a 1/4" carbide bit and screw the flange down on top of the tile floor. That is where it belongs.

Every Orange Box around here stocks that exact flange.

Any more questions? Don't be afraid to ask.



Edited 1 times.

Yes, they are the closet bolts. This link is a pic of a street elbow, note 1 end fits inside and the other fits outside.
[www.smarthome.com]

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jerco, I do have a few more questions.....

you wrote a few posts back:

"Cut the top of that flange off any way you can."

By the "top of the flange" do you me the lip that extends out over the subfloor and holds the closet bolts? If so, I can cut it off right below the lip, leaving the part that is glued inside the street ell.

Will it make a difference in the installation of the new flange if the street ell is flush with the tile floor once I finish the tile? Or should I add an extension to the street ell to be sure that it is above the tile floor?

Redwood, Thanks for the clarification on the closet bolts and street ell.

You can actually just make a vertical cut around the flange leaving the full height. Cut around the OD of the pipe. It doesn't even have to be pretty... Just to make room for the flooring to fit under the new flange.

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Edited 2 times.

redwood, what is the "OD of the pipe"?

OD = Outside Dimension?

The flange you have is glued to the outside of the drain pipe (street ell). If you can cut the top of that flange off (yes, the part that has the bolt slots) without cutting the top of the 4" pipe, then by all means, that would be great. Otherwise you will have to cut vertically around the outside diameter of the part of the flange that is glued to the 4" fitting.

The top of that street ell can be anywhere between flush with the tile to about 3/4" below the finished tile surface, and the new flange will work just fine.

Yep, You got it! Make sure you post pics of the finished job now! And ask any other questions you need answered.

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jerco and redwood, I appreciate all of your advice. As you can see I am pretty clueless about this stuff. I feel prepared to launch into this project now knowing that I am proceeding in the proper order of things. If we all lived in the same town, I would have to buy you two a round of beers! I'll be sure and post photos when I finish the project.

wyoPLUMBnovice

P.S. any advice on the best tools/methods to cut the PVC?



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Any saw that gets in there that can cut it is probably okay. Heck I've even cut one off with tin snips.

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Sawzall would be my first choice, Rotozip would be second, and then a hacksaw blade. Redwood must be strong like bull to use tin snips (or have really great tin snips).

Good luck, and don't hesitate to ask more questions if you need to.

Combination of "strong like bull" and good snips! I used to do plant maint. work in a plant where sheet metal parts were manufactured. I learned what good snips are.

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why does it look to me like the flange is glued inside the fitting not on the outside?

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I don't know it looks outside to me... no purple visible like on the joint below.

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i need new glasses

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Looks to me like it's a one piece deal.

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Hey all, I thought I would post a picture of my tile project as it is currently. I just cut off the flange tonight! Glad that's done. Used a hacksaw and cut the street ell right below the flange. Worked like a charm. the top of the street ell should sit flush or slightly below the new tile floor.



It appears that the old flange fit on the outside of the street ell. I also went to my nearest big box home improvement store and got the new stainless steel flange that you all recommended. I know this is a bit premature since I haven't laid the tile yet, but I thought I would just pick up some PVC cement while I was at it (it's an hour round trip to the big box for me). I wasn't completely sure what to get since there are alot of different types. I decided on the Regular Clear PVC cement and NSF Purple Primer.....do you think this will work alright? Next step is to lay the subfloor. Enjoy the photo.

wyoPLUMBnovice

Very nice job.

You are going to redo the plywood right? All 6 screws, that hold the flange down, must go into wood. The more wood the better.

Keep us posted.

jerco, Yes....I will be redoing the plywood subfloor so that it will fit snugly around the street ell. Once the plywood is recut and attached to the subfloor I can lay my underlayment and tile. I'll be sure that all screws on the flange will be biting into some wood.

WYO



Edited 1 times.

Just making sure. Keep up the good work.

Update. Got the new subfloor laid. The new piece of plywood fits snugly around the street ell. I placed the new flange in the street ell temporarily to be sure that all screw holes were over a solid piece of wood. Now I can start laying my tile.



WYO

Looking good!

Look at the bottom side of that flange. It is actually a little bit funnel shaped to the uppermost layers of your flooring the hole will have to have a slightly wider hole. Just don't want to have you trimming the flooring later to allow the flange installation.

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Edited 1 times.

redwood, I don't know if I completely understand your last post. Although, after looking at the new flange I purchased I think I may have gotten the wrong one. It is not the exact flange that you showed (I thought it was when I was standing in the store). The one I have is stainless steel, although it is not 1/2" think. It is a 4x3" flange and fits inside a 4 inch pipe, however the fit is not very tight. Perhaps I should just order the exact one that you suggested. In your last response are you advising that I should trim the plywood around the street ell a little bit more? If so, why? Thanks for the input.

WYO



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No the plywood around the street el is fine! You are adding more flooring on top of that plywood and on the upper layers of that flooring keep in mind the area on the flange shown in red in the drawing below. It does get wider near the top and I know the clearance for that is a lot easier to make before the pipe is in the way.

The flange should fit snug inside the pipe. The further in it goes the tighter it should be.




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Edited 1 times.

The flange he has probably looks like this.

The area in red hangs a little below the stainless steal (about 1/16 of an inch) but it's basically a flush fit. I usually allow for the 1/16" by chipping the tile back but it's not really necessary (I'm a little persnickety).

I'm anxious to see further progress.

Hey jerco and redwood, I am working on laying the tile now. Since Elk season started on the 15th of October here in Wyoming, it may be a while until I send more photos..........i'll keep you updated as I make progress.

WYO

Mmmm Elk those overgrown deer! Been a while since I got one of them! Got a 14pt back in the late 70's in Idaho. It just doesn't get any better than that!

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That looks like a pretty big target. Shouldn't take ya too long.

Is that for mounting or munching?

Funny thing... There was enough there for both! The damn thing filled the whole bed of the pick-up truck, Had to cut it up into 7 or, 8 pieces just to carry it out of the woods to the truck. Next time I do that I think I'll try chasing it towards the truck before I cap him. Where in Wyoming are you?

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I went from being grossed out to lol in two sentences. Good job. Have you thought of dressing up like a female Elk looking for action to get him to come to you (ala Bugs Bunny)?

I don't think I want a 1,000 lb critter looking at me like that! I was out there 5 years and I got 1 in that time. They were saying average was 1 every 7 years... Guess I beat the odds.

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Edited 1 times.

wyoPLUMBnovice

Any update should be posted in a new thread because this one dropped off the front page. Hope to see something soon.