I posted about this issue I have with my main line full of water, to the point when I flushed the toilet the shower gurgles.

Each time the problem seems to happen after (or during) a heavy rain that flooded the street.

I would open the outside cleanout where the pipe crossed under the property line, and that CO would be full of water. Sometimes after a few hours it fixes itself. Sometimes I have to call the city and they send someone to clear the blockage.

I have always wondered if may be the city sewer may be full and backing into our pipes, but that is not the case. First, none of my neighbors are having the same issue; Second, last time it happened, the city crew opened the man hole in the street and the city main is clear. The crew also told me that my property is the "starter", he explained that means my house drain is the most upstream connection, at the beginning of the line.

The last time this happened, I posted about it here:

[www.plbg.com]

Now, after a few heavy rain storms, I noticed a big hole, with a diameter of about 16" appeared at the edge of the road. This is on the public right of way, next to the edge of pavement.







So I pounded some pipes down and put caution tape around it so no one would step into it or drive over it.



Now what is interesting is this hole is right above my (technically the city's) sewer line. If you look at the man hole, and the CO at my property line, the hole is right in the middle.



How likely is this due to a broken sewer, and dirt/sand washes in and plugging the line, causing a back up, and they come snake the line clean, and it happens again, and suddenly now, the damage got worse, and caused the ground to sink into it?

I assume this is the city's responsibility?

If the damages is under the pavement they would have to cut open the pavement?

I called the city and reported the problem, after explaining the issue in details, the customer service rep said "OK so you have a pot hole near the road". I said "No, not a pot hole, I have a hole in the ground right next to the edge of the road". She said "OK what kind of hole, did something fall on it or someone drove a heavy truck over it?" I finally said "I would classify it as a sink hole and no telling if someone drives next to the edge of the road if the pavement would collapse, you need to send someone from Wstewater Utilities not Roads and Bridges". She said she will file a request.

My worry is they come out and see the hole they bring two buckets of sand filled in the hole, jump up and down then called it good.



Edited 1 times.

start digging

expose the problem

MARK and CORDON OFF the area


? what is the value of peace of mind ?

==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

Liability issue.

It's outside the property line, by the street. If I dug a big hole and someone's car sinks into the bigger hole I dug or a person tripped and fall I may be liable. If the gravel under the asphalt start to erode I am be liable.

If I expose the problem the city could say why did you mess with it? It was a hole the size of a basketball and now you turned it into a bath tub, may be you broke the pipe with your shovel for all we know.

I am debating if I should hire a plumber to send a camera down, but high probability the camera will see a dark mess mostly dirt that fell in, but that could be evidence of a pipe broken to show the city.

pour some water with flourescent dye in it down the sink hole. have the city there to see if it shows up in the manhole.

To me, the sinkhole is evidence enough that the sewer is broken, (probably where your line connected to the city's stub out). Here, the line, all the way to the city main is the homeowner's responsibility, but in other areas it can be the city's so you have to determine which is your situation.

I may try this dye method.

hj, the section of the line is not owned by the property owner. When it gets clogged the city comes clear it, they also told me since the CO at the property line is 6", it is most definitely "city property". I don't know if that's sufficient for the repair to be done by the city, since ownership doesn't always mean responsible. The area outside of my property line I do not own, but I am responsible to mow it.

But I cannot imagine I am responsible to repair the portion from the edge of pavement to the main, how would a home owner repair that if it means cutting up the road and removing the road bed?

Sum, the property owner's responsibility for the sewer lateral, all the way to the main, is common in the San Francisco bay area.

Same here we are responsible all the way to the city main
Contractor must be bonded to open the street

Here, the homeowner even responsible for the "Y" connection to the sewer if it fractures.

I think your assessment of the problem is spot on, sum. I also agree that you shouldn't start digging on your own because of the liability you might create for yourself. The only question is who owns that section of line....whether you are responsible all the way to the main or if the city takes over once it crosses your property line.

How would a home owner fix the Y on a sewer main? It's not like a home owner can DIY or hire a contractor to cut open a city road. So what does it mean when a HO is "responsible"? I bet it will still be the city that sends out a crew and equipment to do the necessary repair, close down the road and redirect traffic etc...then they send the HO a bill?

well, good news.

I called a plumber this morning to come take a look to either do a dye test that Packy suggested or a camera inspection of the lateral. They scheduled it to be between 2PM and 6PM.

Well around noon, the city showed up and they sent a camera down the CO at the property line. Saw that the line was full of dirt, and concluded the line is broken and the hole is eroding into the broken pipe. So I asked him whether this is my responsibility to fix or the city's. He said the city will fix it because that lateral is city property and when they did the sewers, the city plumbed the laterals to each property and put in a 6" CO, and each property connects to that. So the city will come fix this problem. He was curious why the pipe would break...whether there was any heavy construction here in the last few years, I said no construction since 2019 that's when I bought this place. I did say the pipe inside that CO is not white SCH40 PVC but it's the green PVC that is thinner, may be those PVC is not that strong? He said it should be strong "enough".

So he marked off an area for the city crew to dig and repair the pipe. Now there is a water main across that area so he sprayed blue color there.

He also called in a few buckets of road rock to fill in the hole for now to stop anyone from falling into it.











Looks like they are cutting up half the road! However it may be next week or longer before they can come.

I then asked him whether I should stop using my bathroom and kitchen until they fix this, he thought for a minute and said no not needed, he went to the 6" CO and opened the cover, said if it ever stops up the flow will just spill out here and so don't worry too much about it .

Wow ... I can't wait to read/see the results.

+1 for the spraycansmanship.

vic I am too, waiting for them to come fix it. Since it is now a "Public works" work order, I no longer can call the city's regular customer line to get statuses. I hope they come soon as we may have a storm next week.

They came and put some gravel into the hole so people won't trip over. It's been one day and rained a few times and smaller holes are back not exactly in the same places inches from the original hole so I think the underground voids are bigger.

I hope they will come before the spray paint fades.

Geeze Sum .... I sure hope there won't be a big/dangeroud sinkhole. Sounds like Florida has too many sinkholes for my liking.

Per:

[floridadep.gov]

"Sinkholes are a common feature of Florida's landscape. They are only one of many kinds of karst landforms, which include caves, disappearing streams, springs and underground drainage systems, all of which occur in Florida."

The city came today, but I was at work so didn't even know they came.

Around 11:30am someone called and said he is from the city and he was outside with a crew trying to dig up my pipe, but they ran into two problems.

First, they tore out a 2" PVC pipe about 4' deep, and was wondering if I knew what it was. I said I have no idea. He said it could be a sprinkler line and I said I have never seen sprinkler line buried this deep in Florida. He agreed and said "well, not sure what this was, but it's in the way of the machine so we tore it out.

Second, they haven't found the sewer line yet, should be 5 to 6 feet below, but since I am close to the river and the water seeps up about 3' down, the more they dug the more water came in to fill the hole.

So during lunch I headed home and by the time I got home they were already finished and backfilling. I saw they had a 2" PVC about 12' long laying by the road that's the mystery pipe no one knew anything about.

Then they had this section of 6" pipe they cut out that was damaged. I asked if they could tell how it was damaged they didn't know.



That's where the dirt was flowing into when we had heavy rain. I never saw the repair if they used Ferno couplings or something else. But they were just pushing the dirt and rocks back into the hole. I know they are supposed to lay down a bed of sand into the trench so the pipe is property supported but I guess these rules are for homeowners if the city does it themselves there are no such rules



Edited 1 times.

Looks like freshly damaged pipe? Like maybe from a (city?) backhoe?

Vic, not sure. I saw that and wondered too, I asked if this was the damaged pipe or was this damaged by the back hoe digging? They said this is what's causing the sink hole. I asked how could a pipe be damaged like that six feet down? They don't know. I was kind of expecting a separated joint. Too bad I couldn't be there while they excavated.

well, it's been 5 days since they made the repair. Rained again last night.

Today after work I looked, and the edge of the road is cracking and sinking.





So I am wondering if the road is sinking because:

(1) After they made the repair, they didn't compact the backfill well, and so a heavy truck went over the edge and caused this.

or

(2) The damaged pipe is still down there, and the dirt is still eroding into the pipe. Their back hoe during digging damaged the pipe, and they thought they found the break in the pipe but instead it was a freshly made damage, the pipe being below the water table with the hole being flooded as they dug added to the confusion.

OMG :-( ... to me the very high water table makes our guessing almost impossible at this point. Time passing might tell you/us a lot. Fingers crossed no additional sinking.

I will have to keep an eye on it. I guess the only way to be sure they properly repaired it would be to do a camera inspection myself.

Since it rained last night, have a look in the cleanout at the property line and see if there is water in the pipe.