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 Sign of the Times?
Author: LI Guy (IN)

I was in the local big orange store last week shopping for new shut off valves to use when I relocate the kitchen sink in this remodel project (you may recall you guys helped me with the drain/vent last week).

I find the valve section in the plumbing aisle, and there is a huge selection. I'm looking for a straight valve, 3/8" compression by 1/2" copper sweat. None. They no longer stock them. The only 3/8" comp x 1/2" sweat they had was the angle valve...ALL of the other valves were push-to-fit for pex or CPVC, with the exception of one 1/2" compression type for copper.

Being that I didn't need it right away, I left without making a purchase and was going to order them online because I'm old fashioned and I like my copper soldered. Before I do that, I thought to check back in with the pros here about these sharkbite-type connectors.

Everyone was skeptical about the longevity of these fittings, particularly in inaccessible areas, but push-to-connect has been around 15+ years now and seem to only be getting more popular. Is it time to hang up my torch and use the new modern stuff?

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Not a plumber by trade but a fierce DIYer

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 Re: Sign of the Times?
Author: packy (MA)

gonna be hard to get an unbiased opinion about push-to-connect from us plumbers.
i for one would use compression on both ends. 5/8 x 3/8..

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 Re: Sign of the Times?
Author: bernabeu (SC)

'push to connect' in an EXPOSED readilly visible OUTSIDE the wall application is marginally OK

compression is better

soldered is even better

flare(d) is betterer but not 'doable' for potable water applications

silver soldered is the gold standard




fact, not opinion

- - - -

Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638
"Measure Twice & Cut Once"



Edited 1 times.

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 Re: Sign of the Times?
Author: LI Guy (IN)

This is my go-to, the 1/4 turn sweat:



In this application, the sink is on an outside wall, so while the drain/vent is in the wall, the supplies come up from the floor.

Interesting that our sponsor here does not carry these either, had to order them elsewhere.

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Not a plumber by trade but a fierce DIYer

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 Re: Sign of the Times?
Author: Lorensr (CA)

You've got that right Bern

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 Re: Sign of the Times?
Author: packy (MA)

please tell me how you would silver solder a 1/4 turn fixture stop?

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 Re: Sign of the Times?
Author: NoHub (MA)

Yes I'll have one cooked nylon seal please.

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 Re: Sign of the Times?
Author: hj (AZ)

WHY is "flared" "NOT DOABLE" for potable. Never heard of such a thing.

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 Re: Sign of the Times?
Author: hj (AZ)

And how many you would ruin before you gave up.

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 Re: Sign of the Times?
Author: Lorensr (CA)

Flared is reserved for gas.

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 Re: Sign of the Times?
Author: NoHub (MA)

Commercial coffee makers use to have flare connections, some still do.



Edited 1 times.

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 Re: Sign of the Times?
Author: packy (MA)

copper water main connections used to be all flared.

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 Re: Sign of the Times?
Author: bernabeu (SC)

yes yes yes

of course there are SOME flared connections with potable water

but

NOT for typical in the wall piping or typically used even for dishwashers anymore



---------------------------------------------------------------------


one would silver solder a ball valve with plastic ball and/or seats (yes, PTFE is plastic) by DISASSEMBLYING the valve first


DO'H


yes, a QUALITY valve CAN be disassembled for service purposes


? do y'all not know that oxygen service uses silver soldered ball valves ?


howevever


squirm and twist as you will BUT my list is valid

- - - -

Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638
"Measure Twice & Cut Once"

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 Re: Sign of the Times?
Author: hj (AZ)

SINCE WHEN???????????????????????????????????? That is the most nonsensical statement I have ever read.

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 Re: Sign of the Times?
Author: hj (AZ)

But then, soldering angle stops is NOT "normal" either these days

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 Re: Sign of the Times?
Author: bernabeu (SC)

of course silver soldering an angle stop is 'not normal'



when silver soldering was specced for Cu tube angle stops were THREADED and the ADAPTER was silver soldered



a threaded angle stop is STILL best practice as it is READILLY 'swapped out' with minimal disruption and without further soldering



we must remember that we are (were) skilled tradespersons and act like it even though we have been brainwashed into




Quote

never stop improving





---------------------------------------------------------------


rant over - and out

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Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638
"Measure Twice & Cut Once"

Post Reply

 Re: Sign of the Times?
Author: packy (MA)

in massachusetts we are required to get a "hot work" permit any time we use an open flame. this means a trip to the fire station and if they want we must hire and pay a "fire watch" to stand by.

so if i am installing a shower valve that has solder ends i have to take it outside and solder some pex adapters into it then bring it in to install.

[massconstruction.org]

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 Re: Sign of the Times?
Author: bernabeu (SC)

evidently MA actually enforces a 'best practice'



back in the olden stone age days the apprentice usually held the NYCFD 'fire watch' certificate and 'stood by' while the journeyman actually brazed



OCCASIONALLY the journeyman would 'fire watch' for the apprentice

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Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638
"Measure Twice & Cut Once"

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 Re: Sign of the Times?
Author: packy (MA)

you are assuming that 2 men are sent to every job.

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 Re: Sign of the Times?
Author: sum (FL)

Packy what about molten lead? Do you have to heat the lead outdoors then run back inside to pour it before it cools?

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 Re: Sign of the Times?
Author: hj (AZ)

That is a good way to make certain "qualified" tradesmen price themselves out of the job. I would NEVER get a fireman to stand guard while I was doing an extensive soldering job.

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 Re: Sign of the Times?
Author: bernabeu (SC)

if the job requires an 'open flame' inside a non-fireproof structure then 2 men SHOULD be sent

- - - -

Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638
"Measure Twice & Cut Once"

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 Re: Sign of the Times?
Author: packy (MA)

sum, there wouldn't be enough time.. the lead would probably cool too quickly.

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 Re: Sign of the Times?
Author: LI Guy (IN)

I thought soldering these on was considered "best practice"? I haven't cooked the seals in one yet. Just have to remember to solder with the valve in the open position....and close it before you turn the water on!

I have a roll of aluminum flashing, and if the soldering site is in a sensitive area next to wiring or insulation, I cut a square of flashing and put it behind the joint to act as a flame guard and heat shield. It is possible to burn a hole through aluminum sheet with a propane torch, so care still needs to taken.

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Not a plumber by trade but a fierce DIYer

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 Re: Sign of the Times?
Author: bernabeu (SC)

a quality soldered on REBUILDABLE stop is good practice

a soldered on adapter to (m)NPT with a threaded stop is ALSO good practice



my PERSONAL opinion (which goes along with my rear orifice) is the adapter is best practice as the soldering is over and done with for a future simple and 'painless' threaded swap-out

- - - -

Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638
"Measure Twice & Cut Once"

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 Re: Sign of the Times?
Author: hj (AZ)

Unfortuneatly, "best practices" often equates with "too expensive for the average consumer", which then leads to "dumbing down the trade" or "let's just do it and don't tell anyone".

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 Re: Sign of the Times?
Author: NoHub (MA)

Individuals who are licensed under a specialized code (M.G.L. chapter 143 section 96) such as, but not limited to, plumbers, electricians, etc. are not required to secure a permit from the head of the fire department. For example, a plumber who pulls a permit to do plumbing work is not required to get another permit from the fire department for the hot work that is incidental to their plumbing work.

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 Re: Sign of the Times?
Author: ArthurPeabody (NM)

The push-to-fit connectors rotate freely. I asked SharkBite about this; they told me it was a feature.

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 Re: Sign of the Times?
Author: sum (FL)

I typically use compression angle stops. Easy to attach and no torch needed. You do have to remove the old nut and ferrule if you want to change out the escutcheon and that sometimes require a sleeve puller and if the old ferrule strangled the pipe the new one may not seal.

If the location is such that the stops are not visible like inside a cabinet, and if I am doing an extensive repair where the wall cavity is open and it's not a tight fit with an open flame I will solder on a 1/2" male adapter instead. I don't put escutcheons in those cases just cleanly caulk around the holes.

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 Re: Sign of the Times?
Author: bernabeu (SC)

@ sum,

split escutcheon



- - - -

Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638
"Measure Twice & Cut Once"

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 Re: Sign of the Times?
Author: hj (AZ)

Union job.

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 Re: Sign of the Times?
Author: bernabeu (SC)

hj,



i am soooo glad that you equate 'union job' with 'best practice'

- - - -

Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638
"Measure Twice & Cut Once"

Post Reply

 Re: Sign of the Times?
Author: LI Guy (IN)

Years ago, before I learned how to solder copper, I used a few compression fittings and *every* single one leaked. If not at first, then a month after it was installed. Back before the Internet, (I'm a million years old, I know) I went to the library and got a book on plumbing and practiced until I could solder a joint with a better probability of success than using a compression fitting. Now, I find it easier to solder then use a compression, but I'm sure I would have a different opinion if I was in the trade and doing this every day.

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Not a plumber by trade but a fierce DIYer

Post Reply

 Re: Sign of the Times?
Author: Lorensr (CA)

IMHO if you want to succeed in the trade it is imperitive that you learn how to solder lest you cut yourself from a good portiom of the repairs out there. Soldering is easy once you learn how to clean inside and outside of the joint and then flux inside and outside and the apply the heat so that the solder is drawn into the joint and then wiping the flux from the fitting and pipe so it won't turn green and errode. Controlling the heat is the key. Then you need to be able to accomplish this in a confined or unaccessible area. See, .....it's easy. Just kidding but you need to practice. One last thing I forgot above, you must make sure there is no water in the pipe in the area of the joint in question.

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