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 4x4 rubber on 4x3 pipes
Author: Marko1 (MO)

Hi guys,
Never seen a balloon fernco before. Says vertical installation only.
Any way it looks like a 4x4 fitting on a 4x3 conx, so the bottom was tightened till it folded creating a straight shot though the wall to the basement for the water....@#$%&!!!




once I got the rubber off I see the pvc goes up inside the ci
I'll have to cut the pvc down to get the donut off.
I'm hoping I can cut low enough to get a 3x4 reducer on the pvc.
Then a short stub of 4" pvc and a 4x4 fernco to the ci.
I'm down inside the wall so it will be tricky to get a sawzall in there.
I know you arent' supposed to reduce pipe size but above this point there is only the 1.5" sink line
tapping into the ci and the rest is the vent thru the roof



any other ideas, advice or warnings appreciated smile
fwiw I had also thought of squirting a bunch of silicone up inside the bottom side of the rubber to make a seal lol .... everything else on this recently acquired rental has been done in the crappiest ways possible so why should I deviate?

but seriously if I can't fit a saw in low enough I don't know what I'm going to do...

and my biggest worry is i can see another rubber conx (i think) a couple feet down in the wall where the 3" pvc goes back to 4" ci down to the basement...if this isn't the only leak I'll be really hosed !!



Edited 1 times.

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 Re: 4x4 rubber on 4x3 pipes
Author: bernabeu (SC)

? hire an actual PLUMBER to fix your ................ wait ............. wait for it .................. plumbing ?

- - - -

Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638
"Measure Twice & Cut Once"

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 Re: 4x4 rubber on 4x3 pipes
Author: Marko1 (MO)

smile
now there's a thought
smile

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 Re: 4x4 rubber on 4x3 pipes
Author: hj (AZ)

I'll bet it is a NEW one.

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 Re: 4x4 rubber on 4x3 pipes
Author: bernabeu (SC)

even a stopped clock is correct ONCE a day

or possibly TWICE



ps. the 'unknown' fitting is called an expansion/contraction relief device a/k/a 'bellows' fitting


eg.

fernco XJ-4: [cdn-tp3.mozu.com]


@OP: you will need an ECCENTRIC reducing coupling: [www.bing.com]

- - - -

Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638
"Measure Twice & Cut Once"



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 Re: 4x4 rubber on 4x3 pipes
Author: Marko1 (MO)

well not totally new...I've had a plumber do several jobs on this house so far, in addition to some work I've done with help from you guys here.
he is out of town for a couple more weeks so I guess i can call around and find another one who could come bid it in a few days and then get on his schedule for a week or two in the future while the renters are out of a bathroom for the duration...
or I thought maybe with your generous help I could fix it today...
just another thought lol
smile

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 Re: 4x4 rubber on 4x3 pipes
Author: sum (FL)

if it reduces from 4" CI to 3" PVC and if what you are saying is true that down below it goes back from 3" PVC to 4" CI, then I will be tempted to verify if this is true and if so, replace the entire vertical piece of 3" PVC with 4" PVC.

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 Re: 4x4 rubber on 4x3 pipes
Author: Marko1 (MO)

well that (replacing the 3"winking smiley would involve tearing open plaster walls and ceilings and re-plumbing the toilet that ties into the 3" and creating a huge mess while the tenants are trying to settle into their new home.
Unfortunately I didnt discover a few glaring problems until I got the house rented as we hadn't used the upstairs plumbing and just assumed if there were issues the house inspection would have caught them...bad idea.
I just want to fix this one little joint and get out of their hair smile

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 Re: 4x4 rubber on 4x3 pipes
Author: hj (AZ)

Eccentrics are NOT necessary in vertical lines and NOT always for horizontal ones either. It depends on the application.

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 Re: 4x4 rubber on 4x3 pipes
Author: bernabeu (SC)

correct

but

the two pipes are 'slightly' misaligned

and

since the reduction in size is a boo boo it may as well ALSO be more easily connected with an eccentric coupling



the entire piping renders the structure unfit for human occupation, ie. no valid c of o

- - - -

Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638
"Measure Twice & Cut Once"

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 Re: 4x4 rubber on 4x3 pipes
Author: Marko1 (MO)

bernabeu,
that's disturbing...
if i get the 4x3 reducer on it is it still not correct?
what specifically is the problem?
it is basically a 3" stack expanding to 4" vent and 4" drain isn't it?

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 Re: 4x4 rubber on 4x3 pipes
Author: bernabeu (SC)

yes


bite the bullet


open 'er up and fix it right as Sum suggested


explain to the tenant - offer an 'overnight getaway' at a local hotel with dinner for the trouble


you will NEVER regret doing it correctly


you probably WILL regret a 'schlom job'




IMO: you are a landlord - you are now a commercial enterprise - the tenants have certain 'rights' - one right is that the premises meet code - as the landlord you either knew or SHOULD OF KNOWN said status

be nice - play nice - a night and dinner at a hotel will go a long long way to alleviate a little dust

- - - -

Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638
"Measure Twice & Cut Once"

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 Re: 4x4 rubber on 4x3 pipes
Author: sum (FL)

can the 3" PVC shift to the front of the wall with some persuasion?

the only fixture draining into the CI above the joint is the 1.5" sink in this picture?



One option is to make the cut on the cast iron pipe ABOVE the sink fixture line. Use all PVC from the 3" and up. Cement a 3" sanitary tee with a 1.5" branch for the sink fixture. That should be doable since the wall is open right there.

Then I will go up to the roof, unfold the lead around the 4" cast iron pipe. Then slide the entire section of 4" CI up through the roof and replace with a section of 3" PVC instead then fold the lead back over the 3". This will result in all PVC from the roof all the way down and somewhere it switches to 4" CI and you can deal with that joint in the future.

If the 4" vent section of the CI is strapped and supported with pipe clamps that you have no access to, you can even slide a 3" PVC through the roof using the 4" as a sleeve and still make it work, rendering the 4" CI useless. Unless, of course, inside the attic the 4" has some other tees tied into it.



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 Re: 4x4 rubber on 4x3 pipes
Author: Marko1 (MO)

yes I suppose that could be doable.
I'm still very curious what damage having a 4-in vent above a 3 in pipe does to make the building uninhabitable

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 Re: 4x4 rubber on 4x3 pipes
Author: bernabeu (SC)

code serves as the MINIMUM standard for human occupation

when one 'meets code' one obtains a certification of fitness for human occupancy otherwise known as a 'certificate of occupancy' or a C of O


? not up to code minimum ?

! not fit for occupancy !


perhaps, as SUM suggests, you can rework it all so that it is 3" all the way through the roof even though your code may REQUIRE 4" due to weather issues

ANOTHER issue is that unshielded couplings are NOT allowed (especially inside walls)



ps. you may thank your stars that 'most' of the typical homes actually exceed minimum code

eg. 7'2" min ceiling height

heat to 45 in winter

1 sink - 1 toilet - 1 tub - 1 dishwash basin

400 sq ft for family of 4


sooooooo ........ when MINIMUM code is NOT met ......................................................




of course there are many 'circumstances' where something will 'work' w/o problems


but


as you discovered just in time to prevent MAJOR wood damage may leak and cause HIDDEN issues


you are now a commercial operation - act as such



over and out

- - - -

Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638
"Measure Twice & Cut Once"



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 Re: 4x4 rubber on 4x3 pipes
Author: sharp1 (IL)

In fact, some codes require vents to be increased to 4" before roof penetration to prevent frost from closing the vent.

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 Re: 4x4 rubber on 4x3 pipes
Author: Marko1 (MO)

I would still like to learn how expanding the vent size slightly on the last few feet of the stack makes an entire plumbing system invalid. does that prevent the vent from functioning?

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 Re: 4x4 rubber on 4x3 pipes
Author: steve (CA)

The problem is not the increasing of a vent, but the reduction of a drain pipe. As stated, some codes require an increase in the vent pipe, from the attic to the above roof termination, to reduce frost closure. The 3" in your situation is a drain pipe, being fed by a 4". Granted, there's only the 1 1/2" draining into the 4", but the code states no reduction in drain pipe size.

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 Re: 4x4 rubber on 4x3 pipes
Author: sum (FL)

I understand as a landlord you have to make tenants happy and keep everything functional, and at the same time if it involves a shutdown of some components such as air conditioning, water supply, drain, doors and windows it gets messy and they are constantly asking over your shoulders is it done how much longer...

I avoid these situations by taking more time during turnovers and replace/repair what I need without pressure. That's why sometimes I would post something and I have no problem if water is shutdown for 3 days or the drain is cut open while I hunt for parts locally or online. With tenants occupying it is a different story and you must provide access to plumbing or you pay them for the inconvenience.

In my leases I have a provision for emergency repairs. I have the option of putting them into hotels, or reimburse them a daily rent (prorated from the monthly rent). So if they are out for multiple days I will credit their rent for those days. A few years back I had to tent the entire building for termite fumigation and everyone had to be out for 3 days. I paid them for the three days and on top of that I gave everyone a supermarket gift card of $100 for their inconvenience.

Sometimes a temporary "hack" is unavoidable because you need a part that has to be special ordered, or the fix is so complicated it involves tearing up tiled walls, a multiple day inconvenience and you have to restore service that same day, especially during this pandemic, or the tenant has a baby, or they have pets and cannot stay at a hotel, you are pretty much stuck. That's when stuff like sharkbites, duct tape, flex seal comes out but I will have a honest conversation with the tenants about what the issue is, and let them know the repair is temporary at best, and will need to be addressed in the short term, and possibly in stages.

I think the biggest issue with your pipe size change is that 1.5" sink is draining into that 4" above the 3". I think you will agree if you drain into a 4" which goes to 3" then back to a 4" that is a restriction, and a restriction in a drain is a really bad thing in a horizontal position and a not so nice thing in a vertical position. If it is a section of 3" PVC what is holding the PVC section? The two rubber fernco?

It seems to me replacing the sink connection is not too difficult because it's right above the connection you plan to replace anyways. Then go to the attic and make sure that there isn't any indirect vent tees connecting to the 4" cast iron, then slide a 3" PVC in it, that allows you to solvent weld everything with no rubber connection at all.

By the way, whatever Fernco transition coupling you buy, make sure they are in stock. The pandemic is causing a lot of parts to be out of stock. Last week I tried to order a Fernco strong back 4X4 coupling and everyone was out of stock and the expected availability is Nov 2. I called Fernco and they said it's true. So when you make your plan be sure you can get the parts. Good luck.

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 You guys are the greatest! clap thumbs
Author: Marko1 (MO)

Thanks to all for their help, suggestions and explanations.
You guys are the greatest!



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