Please help!!!

New construction house built in Dec 2019. Kept hearing a loud banging noise from time to time after a toilet was flushed or when the washing machine was on or when the shower head was turned on. The refrigerator would clunk randomly after flushing a toilet. The inspector we hired in Sept said it could be a water hammer and the water pressure was around 40 PSI only.
The plumber add a water hammer arrestor and a spring check valve as a billable service to us -> The plumber said it should stop the water hammer.

The plumber replaced a thermal expansion tank -> He happened to noticed it was bad as the water pressure was 100 PSI after the water hammer arrestor's installation and the water leaked near the basement faucet.

The plumber replaced a PRV. -> Because the water pressure dropped from 80 PSI to 40 PSI. The plumber set the water pressure to 80 PSI but it changed mysteriously to 50 PSI after he left.

Moreover, the banging noises occur randomly still. Why do the water pressures fluctuated so much? How to stop the banging noises? Please help!!! Thanks!!!

you've almost given us too much information.
one plumber replaced the PRV.
one replaced an expansion tank.
pressure increasing with no explanation
pressure dropping with no explanation.

something isn't right.

if you have a new PRV and a new expansion tank and a water hammer arrestor has been added and the pressure is around 50 PSI then there should be no water hammer.

Many thanks, Packy!

I know, right?! That's exactly what I told the builder. But so far, they have not responded. It's so sad and frustrating and nervous to hear the banging noise randomly everyday without knowing what it is or what to do.

since it is relatively new construction, i would contact the plumbing inspector for his opinion.
if there is a deficiency in the plumbing he should not have passed the job.
if there is something defective then he might be able to talk to the plumber to expedite repairs.
the last thing you want is some plumber coming in and changing parts that don't need to be replaced and presenting you with an un-necessary bill.

Only one arrestor? Where was the arrestor installed?

Many thanks again for your time and help. Packy!

Have a nice day and a Happy Holiday Season!!!



Edited 1 times.

The builder replied in Sept that "Your home is equipped with water hammer arrestors in the kitchen and laundry room. He (Fiona: The plumber) could add one at your main service line as a billable service to you." The plumber also said his company had fixed similar problems before and so far no homeowners called them back. That's why I agreed to schedule a billable service...

geesh.. if the builder installed hammer arrestors and you still have water hammer then he has failed to build you a home that is free from water hammer.
once again, a call to the plumbing inspector followed up by a call to the head of inspectional services (his boss) followed by a call to the mayors office would be my recommendation.
look, you paid for a first class job and if the builder can't provide this for you then he must pay the expenses of another plumber who cam do what he can't.

Thank you so much, Packy!

Just sent an email to the City Development Service. Not sure if and how they would step in and do anything about this problem, though. So sad and disappointed that the builder and its plumber have been reluctant to help resolve it...

fiona, sometimes you just have to be plain nasty.
you have given the builder/plumber an opportunity to fix what they have done wrong and they have been unable to correct their mistakes.
the next place to contact is the state licensing board. (MO and MA may call it differently)
in MA it is called the board of professional licensure . i think..
the builder will not be happy if he gets a call from the state house but he will respond.
BTW, i would love it if i could tell you (professionally) to do this or do that or set the PRV to XYZ PSI or install another tank in this or that location. BUT i can't diagnose over the internet. i can tell you this. someone has to make 100% sure it is not one of your appliances causing the noise and here we are making life miserable for the builder. so keep smiling as this will all work out. you and your have a nice christmas.

I really can't thank you enough for your time and help, Packy!!!

To my surprise (nice one this time! ^_^), the City Building Inspections Manager just responded with such a thorough email! He said that it might be a loose plumbing line because our house is a single story. He also suggested to contact the city water department to have some water pressure measurements made to determine if the issue is on our side of the meter or on the city side of the meter... Will do so tomorrow.

Likewise, may you and your family have a nice Christmas and a Happy Holiday Season!!!



Edited 2 times.

good morning fiona, yes a loose pipe could cause a banging noise but in that case as the water pressure is reduced so is the intensity of the banging.
so if you were to reduce the house pressure to 20 PSI you would have noticably less flow at the fixtures but the water hammer (if there were any at that low pressure) would be pretty much eliminated. there would not be enough energy in the water to cause problems.
anyway, you are headed in the right direction.
i suspect the next e-mail you get might be from mike parson. hahaha good luck with this problem..



Edited 1 times.

Thanks for the logical inference. I guess I was too anxious and overwhelmed by the banging noises, I did not pay much attention to how often or how less they occurred when the water pressure went down to 50 PSI.

Haha! Mike parson? Still new to Mo... Had to Google search to find out who he is ... I really hope that with the city's help, this banging noise ordeal could end soon. Until then...

Have a nice weekend!



Edited 1 times.

The banging noise is stopped by securing the loose pipe (? in the wall somewhere ?).

If you have a basement you 'could' start there in your sleuthing efforts.

A loose pipe is not necessarilly a code violation.


Best of Luck

==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638



Edited 1 times.

Many thanks, Bernabeu.

I went down to the unfinished basement last night and did find a loose pipe. I secured it but have not been able to tell if it would stop the banging noises. What bothered me the most is the same plumber came over (3) three times and he did not even try to find the possible root cause at all. We are still under the one year warrant but our builder is reluctant to help, either.



Edited 1 times.

Send a registered Letter to the Builder notifying him of the problem and that he needs to fix it.. A loose pipe could be a Code violation. If the Builder doesn't respond, tell him you will get your attorney involved. Time is of the essence.

srloren



Edited 2 times.

Many thanks for the advice, srloren!

The builder just informed me that he would come back out again next Friday. The city is going to send the water meter tech to test the meters again next Monday as our neighbor's water pressure was 80 PSI while ours was 50 PSI only. And unfortunately, the banging noises reoccurred a few minutes ago...

Have a nice weekend!

hi fiona, it makes no sense that your neighbor has 80 PSI pressure and you have 50 PSI.
you are both connected to the same water main.
yeah, there might be a few PSI difference but the standing pressure with nothing running should be very close to identical.



Edited 1 times.

one VISIBLE loose pipe indicates careless pipe hanger/support installation

there are probably OTHERS



on the other hand the problem may be as simple as a loose washer 'somewhere'




code max pressure INSIDE home is 80 psi

if you have 50 that is ideal



lowering the setting on your PRV to 30 'may' help with the banging






send the builder a certified, return receipt requested letter KEEPING AN EXACT COPY

if you get it back 'refused' do NOT, repeat NOT, open it - that will be for the judge's clerk

you may need to prove timely notification to the builder

==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

Hi Packy,

Tell me about it... Either the water pressure or the banging noise makes no sense at all... Something is definitely wrong with our plumbing system. Unfortunately, I am the poor one who has been forced to deal with them without the help from the builder who claims to build quality houses. 2020 is not a good year!

Once again, thank you so much for your time and help. Have a nice weekend and a Happy Holiday Season!



Edited 1 times.

Many thanks again, Bernabeu!

Our water pressures went from 40 PSI (measured by our inspector) to 100 PSI (after the installation of a water hammer arrestor and a spring check valve) to 65 PSI (the plumber set it) to 80 PSI (after the plumber left) to 80 PSI (after the PRV replacement) to 50 PSI (after the Plumber left) to 50 PSI (measured by the city meter tech) in 2 1/2 months. The banging noises happened since we moved into this new construction house last Dec. Essentially, the builder said it could be from the house settling as it's hard to reproduce or duplicate the banging noises which happened randomly. I really don't know what else I should do...

Have a nice weekend and a Happy Holiday Season!!!



Edited 2 times.

FIONA !!!! the builder said a new house settles????
you have told me all i need to hear about this builder.
a properly built new house does not settle.
if it did the windows and doors would not work.
he is a lying *&^%$ and deserves what ever course of action you take.
sorry to be so blunt but i despise 'crap' like that statement.

Hi Packy,

Yes, the Personal Builder, the Area Manager and the Director of Operations all said so... As I mentioned, I was not able to duplicate the banging noise when they came over for the other warranty items. They all told me to keep track of it. Finally, the inspector I hired in Sept heard and told me it could be a water hammer. I had to pay the builder's plumber to install a water hammer arrestor and a spring check valve and they did not work...



Edited 1 times.

I would bet that Bern nailed it with a 'loose washer somewhere', possibly in a toilet fill valve. You can turn off the angle stop (little valve on the bottom left) to each toilet one at a time to see if it stops. If that happens to be what it was, replace the flapper as well as the fill valve.

Many thanks, Steve_g!

I am sorry that I have absolutely no knowledge about plumbing. Please bear with my!!!

Re: angle stop (little valve on the bottom left)...
I did some google research.. Is an angle stop the same as a water shut off valve?

Re: You can turn off the angle stop...
When should I turn it off? In the middle of the water filling? Before or right after flushing a toilet? Thank you!!!

fiona, if the banging sound occurs when you are not using any water then one possible cause is that a toilet mechanism that sends water from the tank down into the bowl when you push the flush lever is not seating properly when that mechanism drops back into place.
when this happens then the water in the tank will slowly dribble thru the inner passage of the toilet down into the bowl. the result will be that the water level in the tank will lower.
when it gets low enough the toilet fill valve will do its job of replenishing the water in the tank back to its proper level.
so what steve is saying is that IF this is happening and IF there is a loose washer in either the toilet fill valve(inside the tank) or in the shut off just under the tank then a hammering noise will occur.
so best thing to do is to shut the little chrome valve just below the tank and check the water level in the tank a few hours later. if the water is indeed dribbling down into the bowl then the water in the tank will be visibly lower. if the water level has not changed then this theory goes out the window.
BTW, i expect that by the time this is all solved that you will know enough about plumbing that you will be posting answers to other peoples questions. hahaha keep smiling.

Many Many Many thanks, Packy!!! (That tells you how much I appreciate your and everyone's time and help!!! )

Yes, I guess I forgot to mention that " the banging sound occurs when you are not using any water." also. Will conduct the investigation NOW.

Have a nice weekend!!!

valve off each toilet (and the fridge ice maker) 'one at a time' for several hours to see if the noise stops

you can also put a few drops of food coloring into each toilet tank - if the tank leaks into the bowl the bowl water will become colored

BUT

FIRST

make sure that all the stop valves are full full open - a partially closed 'cheapo' valve WILL hammer due to vibration under flow - like when a toilet 'mysteriously' refills

==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

Many thanks, Bernabeu!

Re: valve off each toilet (and the fridge ice maker)

How do you valve off the fridge ice maker? Do I necessarily have to pull out the fridge? If so, I am not sure if and how to do it yet... Our fridge is a LG InstaView 27-cu ft French door with ice maker only (= No water dispenser!) and it looks very HEAVY.

Have a nice weekend!

you access the (generally IMPROPERLY INSTALLED but code compliant) fridge's water valve by moving the fridge out from in front of the 'valve box' - there should be a coil of water tubing behind it with enough slack

do the fridge LAST


BUT


should it ever leak THEN you WOULD have to move it


READ THE FRIDGE'S MANUAL COVER TO COVER - learn this one and you have learned them all



ps. welcome to the McMansion Lifestyle

==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

Many thanks again, Bernabeu!

I am currently turning off the angle stop in the MB. Will check later in the evening to see if the water level ever drops down. I will definitely do the fridge last - hopefully with the builder's help next Friday.

Haha! I hate to let you down... but there is no McMansion Lifestyle. It's small, single story house only. That's why the banging noises seem so loud and unbearable. ^_*

in my day a small single family home was 900 square feet and had 3 bedrooms

an LG fridge would have occupied the ENTIRE kitchen

BUT

the plumbing was silent (except for the flush)



in any event: BEST OF LUCK and HAPPY HOLY DAYS

==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

Many thanks!!!

Likewise, Happy Holidays!!!

Based on your new post, I am going to say that the noise you are hearing is your sump pump check valve slamming shut when the pump shuts off. To eliminate this noise, the valve can be replaced with a "quiet" version. Our sponsor has them. [www.plumbingsupply.com]

Just learned how to post an image...

Here is a photo showing how dirty the PEX pipes are and how they were installed/secured. Were they installed/secured properly? Thanks!

fiona, one picture is worth 1000 words.

so, have a look at this instructional sheet for securing pex.
spacing requirements are different according to the size of the pipe.

[www.pscia.com]

Many thanks for the instructional sheet, Packy!

1000 words? I need two words only - Yes or No???

Many thanks, Sharp1!


Re: ... sump pump check valve slamming shut when the pump shuts off...
Do you mean there is another check valve on the main sump pump? How can I duplicate the banging noises from it? FYI, the banging sound also occurs when there is no water being used. The plumber already installed a spring check valve and a water hammer arrestor. Thanks!

yes, there is a 'large' check on the sump pump's discharge piping


fill the sump with a garden hose to activate the pump --- see if it 'bangs' when the pump stops

if yes, you need to replace THAT check with a 'soft seated' type

if no, you 'may' see/hear a loose pipe

==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638



Edited 1 times.

Many thanks, Bernabeu!

Have a nice day!

fiona, when the builder comes by later this week, ask him to please put some kind of support bracket for the water hammer arrestor.
as it is now it is just floating in mid air and if someone grabs it. it can spin easily and cause a leak.
something like this would work perfectly.
don't let them charge you extra for this as it should have been done when the arrestor was installed.

Will do!

Thank you so much, Packy!

Have a great evening!

Question...

The red (hot water) pipe under the kitchen sink can be pulled 2" up. Is it OK? Thanks!

should be no problem..

Many thanks, Packy!

You are the BEST of the BESTS!!! Once again, I really appreciate your time and help!!!

Have a nice day and a Happy Holiday Season!

Dear All:

Please help again!

Re: The plumber replaced a thermal expansion tank -> He happened to noticed it was bad as the water pressure was 100 PSI after the water hammer arrestor's installation and the water leaked near the basement faucet.

The City meter tech just left. The water pressure from the City to our house is 80 PSI which is "pretty standard" according to the city. I was wondering then:
1. Why was our water pressure 100 PSI after the water hammer arrestor's installation back in Oct?
2. Why is the water pressure in our house 50 PSI only now? Thank you!

your water heater is doing its job. heating the water stored inside it.
when that water is heated it expands.
the expansion has to have somewhere to go.
it would normally expand back out into the water main on the street where it would be harmlessly absorbed.
with the addition of the new check valve on your water service the expansion has no where to go so the result is an increase in the water pressure from its normal PSI up to 100 (or more) PSI.
that explains that.
now, adding an expansion tank will give the heated water a place to expand into. this will keep your water pressure at a constant PSI. (no increase)
now fiona, i agree, i am good. hahaha BUT i'm not good enough to figure why the pressure will all of a sudden drop to 50 PSI.
UNLESS... the water powered sump pump is kicking on or a toilet is flushed ?

Thank you so very much for the detailed explanation, Packy!

I really can't thank you enough. No, the water pressure just dropped to 50 PSI after that plumber replaced the PRV and adjusted it a bit lower than 80 PSI. No, the water powered sump pump is not kicking on nor a toilet is flushed.

Just went down to the basement... The water pressure is 70 PSI now (It was 50 PSI at 3:40 PM earlier this afternoon.) and dropped to 42 PSI after a toilet was flushed...

fiona, we are going in a couple of different directions here.
trying to solve a banging problem while also trying to figure why the changes in PSI with no apparent water being used?
picture this..
when there is a problem with your car, you take it to a dealer or garage and they plug it in to get a computer read out/trouble code. the guess work is non-existent.
here, we don't have that luxury.
i and others trying to help are relying on years of past experience to be able to say "oh i had this happen before and i know what to do to fix it".
being up here on cape ann and not being there to run a few of my tests and ideas doesn't help me or you.
so lets hope the builder, plumber, city workers, inspector along with a little imput from the plumbers here get to the bottom of this.
here is something to make you smile and get into the holiday spirit.
santa arrives in my home town by lobster boat. a longstanding tradition.

Many Many Many thanks, Packy!

Wow!!! What a nice, fun and special tradition!!!

Just spoke to one of our old neighbors in Denver who said there might be a restriction somewhere between the meter and our house. I will try to talk to the builder this Friday and see if they could scope the water line (probably not...) or do something else. Until then...

Once again, thank-you to you and everyone who has been very nice trying to help me out. Have a good night and a very Happy Holiday Season!!!

a restriction in your water service would explain a larger than normal drop in PSI when a fixture is used but it would not cause a PSI drop when nothing is used.

Quote

Just went down to the basement... The water pressure is 70 PSI now (It was 50 PSI at 3:40 PM earlier this afternoon.) and dropped to 42 PSI after a toilet was flushed... frowning

quite normal for a 'consumer grade' single stage PRV - don't worry


unless you want to spend the big bucks for a dual stage 'pilot operated' pressure feedback type:



==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

Many thanks, Packy and Bernabeu!!!

I just sent an email to the City Building Inspections Manager to see if he would be kind enough to send one of his plumbing inspects to come over this Friday to meet with our builder.

By the way, there were cracking noises near the basement faucet and the pressure gauge when the water was filling up after a toilet flush. The water heater was making popping and cracking noises after I washed some dishes with warm water... Life is full of unexpected surprises here in MO.

Dear All:

Can this be the clue??? Just washed some dishes with warm water for 6 minutes or so and the red PEX pipe was sagging and lost its shape. Is this normal? Thanks!!!

PEX expands/contracts 1.1" per 100 feet per 10* temperature change. That run of PEX heated up and expanded with your running hot water through it and the increase in length needed to go somewhere.

Many thanks, Steve!

The plumber removed some of the PEX pipe supports yesterday, so that the PEX could expand "better". So far, the banging noise is less frequent which is a good improvement. Will keep track of it.

Have a nice weekend and a Warm, Happy Holiday Season!

[www.phcppros.com]

Many thanks, Packy!

Re: Horizontal runs of PEX must be supported every 32 inches if hanging...

How critical is the 32 inches distance? The section when the PEX was sagging, the distance is 48" between the two clamps. Not sure if I should contact the plumber to fix it or not??? Thank you!

By the way, how many inches of snow did Cape Ann get? I hope you and your family are safe and healthy!!!

Have a nice weekend and a WARM, Happy Holiday Season!

they use 32 inches because typically floor joists are spaced 16 inches on center. so clipping to every other joist give them 32 inches.
i would not be too concerned is some are closer or farther apart.
and whatever you do, don't call the plumber to come back to put a clip on the pex.
haha.. learn to do a simple plumbing repair and hammer on a clip yourself.
you can pick up a small package of 'tube talons' at home depot. use a few and keep the rest in your toolbox. they come in handy.
[www.homedepot.com]

as for snow on cape ann... we got something over 12-13 inches. but it was heavy snow and it blew and drifted quite a bit. good snow for making a snowman if i was a kid.

Many thanks, Packy!

Good to know that it's ok if some are closer or farther apart. The plumber already put a clip on the PEX on every joist during the installation. Because the PEX was twisted badly after the usage of hot water, he pulled out some of clamps this Friday. That's how I noticed the PEX was expanded.

Glad you are doing fine!!! Haha! You don't need to be a kid (again ^_^) to make a snowman. It's been cold and dry here in Mo. Guess we will not have a white Christmas this year. Oh well...

May you have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!!!

Good Morning!

Just noticed the red PEX is very close to the white PEX... Could it be a root cause for the banging noises when the red PEX expands and contracts? Thanks!

perhaps packy would provide a more detailed consumer friendly explanation


you could install a HW recirculation system so that the PEX would maintain a constant temperature so it would NOT be expanding and contracting to such an extent with each 'call' for HW


your present installation leaves virtually NO provision for expansion other than the tube constantly flexing


some of the 'clips' have 'popped' (or been 'removed') because of said expansion


yes, it IS possible to over anchor piping


an ideal installation (albeit not code required) would be to have loosely anchored expansion loops


the PRINCIPLE:



==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638



Edited 1 times.

Many thanks, Bernabeu!

Hope you had a very Merry Christmas weekend!!!

I sent an email to the plumber and copied the builder on Wed after hearing 4 banging noises during a dishwasher's light wash cycle and asked the plumber if there is anything he could do to reduce the noises. I have a feeling that he would not respond as you said the "idea installation" (to have a loosely anchored expansion loop) is not code required...

I was wondering which is the BEST way to do in order to completely eliminate the banging noises caused by the red PEXs' expansion and contraction:
A ) a loosely anchored expansion loop
B ) a HW recirculation system
C ) A+B
D ) [youtu.be]
E ) to change some of BIG red PEXs to copper pipes (Is it feasible? Does it require a permit?)

Thank you!!!



Edited 1 times.

D



assuming you can access the spots where it it required

==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638



Edited 1 times.

Many many many thanks, Bernabeu!!!

May you and your family have a Happy, Healthy and Prosperous New Year!!!

Hi Packy,

Hope you had a very Merry Christmas weekend!

I just scheduled a billable service for a whole home plumbing inspection on 1/6/2021. The service is to inspect water piping, gas piping, water pressure, drains(no snaking), laundry connections, toilets, sump pump faucets and fixtures, and water heater.

The reason why I would spend $$ again for the service is because the water pressure went up to 95 PSI this morning for no reason at all. It was 55 PSI on 12/18 when the builder came over. However, neither the builder nor the plumber would check the water pressure on the water heater as they said it's normal for water pressure to fluctuate. Below are the chronical changes on the water pressure for your reference.
09/28 - 40 PSI -> Measured from the water heater (WH) by our inspector
10/23 - 100 PSI to 65 PSI -> From the basement faucet (BF) after the installation of a water hammer arrestor and a spring check valve on the main service line
11/16 - 80 PSI -> BF
12/02 - 80 PSI/BF and 82 PSI/WH -> changed to 50 PSI after the plumber lowered it a bit from the BF and left
12/04 - 50 PSI -> From the exterior faucet
12/14 - 80 PSI -> From the City Meter. 50 PSI from the BF (3:40 pm) -> 70 PSI (5:53 pm) -> 50 PSI (9:59 pm)
12/15 - 50 PSI -> BF
12/18 - 55 PSI -> BF
12/29 - 95 PSI -> BF

What else shall I do? Thank you!

May you and your family have a Happy, Healthy and Prosperous New Year!!!

you have a failed or improperly 'charged' expansion/compression tank


you needed FULL inspection by an architect/builder/engineer BEFORE you PAID for code MINIMUM work

your plumbing PROBABLY MEETS CODE, but, is 'specification grade' (meets MINIMUM code) not good or best practice which would far far exceed code


code is the MINIMUM for safe human occupancy - examples of code: 7'6" ceiling height - heat to 55 degrees - ONE bath regardless of # bedrooms - 400 sq. ft. house - etc etc etc


next time: CAVEAT EMPTOR


ps. an example of 'good practice' piping work: [drive.google.com]


you need to move to a condo as this stuff is common, everyday maintenance


brand new home(s) included



..... end rant & have a Happy New Year

==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

Many thanks, Bernabeu!

"The plumber replaced a thermal expansion tank -> He happened to noticed it was bad as the water pressure was 100 PSI after the water hammer arrestor's installation and the water leaked near the basement faucet."

"you have a failed or improperly 'charged' expansion/compression tank"

So, the "new" thermal expansion tank (Replaced on 10/27/20 to be exact) needs to be replaced AGAIN??? What about the water heater? I just uploaded a video, [www.youtube.com]. Are the popping and cracking noises normal? Thank you!

May you and your family have a Happy, Healthy and Prosperous New Year!!!