OK I got a mystery I can't figure out.

Have a rental with a Kohler Cimarron toilet K-4634. Several weeks ago the tenant said the toilet is leaking at the base. I went over and found out the bowl is fine, the back tiled wall was wet. It was wet because when refilling the tube was shooting water upwards onto the underside of the lid and cause some water to drip down from the lid running down the back wall.

This toilet has a canister style flush valve. The refill tube is supposed to be inserted into the middle hole of the canister. When I opened the lid this was what I saw and water was actually squirting up at me.



I don't know how the tube moved. I was expecting this.





I inserted the tube back in the middle, tested a few times, and left. Two weeks later, I was there to do some routine maintenance, and decided to open the lid again, and I saw the same tube, not in the hole.

How did the tube work itself loose? The tenant said she never opened the lid and touched anything.

This has happened twice. I have other Cimarron toilets and never had this issue.

So I called Kohler technical support, and they said "oh yeah, you need a retainer clip part #51261".



I am not convinced.

First of all I have installed three Cimarron toilets with these flush valves and I do not remember seeing ANY retainer clips that came with the toilet.

Second I went to look up Kohler's own web site with their own install videos of their canister flush valves and the tube just sticks into the middle, I have not seen them use a retainer clip.

As I look closer it seems when I press the flush lever, the outside plastic cylinder comes up. I wonder if that cylinder coming up could knock the tube, and after repeat action knock the tube off where it was inserted?

Any idea? This makes no sense.



Edited 2 times.

sum, i looked at google images for that flush valve and they show a few different designs.
perhaps a design change because of what you are experiencing?

"For every action there is a reaction'. You have "good" water pressure and the force of the water coming out of the tube is enough to act like a jet stream and push the tube up and overcome the friction in the hole. The only way to overcome it is the stick the tube further into the hole, which creates a different problem, use the clip, or a paper clip.

hj, I don't think the clip will help.

where would the clip be attached to? The outside round cylinder? That goes up and down every time the lever is pressed. It seems the clip on a moving part will only cause it to come loose even more. I don't see where else a clip will go. It seems to me a clip is for the traditional flush valve.

May be some silicone on the outside of the tube before I insert it into the hole and let is set for 24 hours? or some nylon electrical heat shrink tubing to sleeve over both the hole's outside and the tube?

Genius! I will use duct tape!

I use tooth picks to hold them in.

NoHub, where does the toothpick go? along with the tube into the same hole so the toothpick just help it fit tighter?

So this is not me going crazy thinking the tenant is playing games with me?

Sum, the 51261 shows up on this Kohler parts page for that toilet.
[www.faucetshark.com]

it also shows this. Kohler GP1229656

Steve, this is confusing. I think this may be due to Kohler has evolved their design of the toilets multiple times for the same model over the years. There are so many "Cimarron" toilets with different guts. I am not sure the documentation is correct. I looked through the Kohler site and I believe at one point they may be shipping the Cimarron with flapper fill valves and canister fill valves under different model numbers, but their document showed extra parts.

For example if you look at this it showed the clip for non-canister valves only. For canisters the tube sticks into the middle of it. No clips. Actually even with a clip I don't know where you put the clip as the outside sleeve is the only thing one can clip to but that sleeve goes up and down on each flush. May be with the clip you don't even stick into the middle, but just point it down the cylinder on the side.

[support.kohler.com]

and as Packy's picture showed they changed the design later to use a male connection to the tube instead of female, may be that was their solution to my problem?

so I called Kohler again today.

This time they told me the part 51621 clip is not to be used with the canister flush valve.

After hearing what my problem is they said the issue is probably a sudden increase of water pressure which may have expanded the refill tube. They said I should go with a 2 part solution.

(1) Replace the refill tube which may have been worn or damaged over time by the increased water pressure.
(2) Crank down the stop valve to the toilet fill valve to reduce the water pressure.

I don't think water pressure is adjusted by turning the valve, the volume would. All it would do is probably cause a whistle during the refill.

Drill 2 small holes side by side just below the top edge of the canister hole. Push a small nylon cable tie through one hole, loop it around the inserted fill tube, and push it back out through the other hole. Cinch it tightly around the overfill tube. Time, a few minutes, cost about 2 or 3 cents.

Yes I figured I need to hack it somehow. The zip tie idea might work, I try not to drill holes on the parts. I kind of put together some contraption so that it works FOR NOW. I took a binder clip that is just big enough to pinch gently on the tube, but not so much it would deform it. Then I "borrowed" a hair pin from my wife and clipped the ends of the binder clip to the edge of the canister valve. I tested flushed a couple dozen times it seems to work. I bypassed the center hole altogether.





Yes I know this is not a good solution as these metal parts will rust out quickly.

I think a better "permanent" solution is to silicone the end of the tube into the hole, or to switch out the flush valve and order the revised design that Packy posted which uses a male connection to the tube, at least that one if it comes loose you can use a tiny hose clamp on the outside if necessary.

sum' i just graded your job. sadly, you got a D minus.
the purpose of that tube is to refill the bowl should there be not enough water left in it after the flush.
that is why it must go into the center so the water finds its way into the bowl.
only reason you did not get an F is because your solution will save water which will make the EPA happy.

dry the end of the tube COMPLETELY

a few NEAT wraps of electrical tape will ensure a 'jam fit' into the center hole




as packy stated: hose MUST be placed into center to refill bowl trap seal

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"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

'JAM FIT" i like that term.

OK Packy I will redo it the right way.

I placed the tube off to the side as it seems to refill the tank the same way as when inserted in the middle.

It does something to refill the bowl after the flush? I never knew that. How does it do that, does it allow a certain amount of leak after the canister flush closes?

generally they shoot some water down the overflow tube to keep the water level in the bowl at its highest level.

ALL toilet tanks have a provision to handle overflow in case the fill valve sticks or leaks. This provision is also used to replenish the trap seal and establish proper bowl water level by filling the bowl at the same time time the tank is refilled.

the tube 'shoots' water while the fill valve is filling the tank

said water should be directed via the tank overflow into the bowl to replenish the trap seal which, in most cases, was 'siphon jetted' away by the action of the flush


if, repeat if, the outer tube of the flush canister is the overflow serving the tank then use the clip Kohler sent you to secure the tube INSIDE the canister using the same 'logic' you used with the rube goldberg


you can test using a small pitcher - pour some water into the 'outer canister area' and see if it enters the bowl

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"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

This is the original AquaPiston flush valve, and yes, the tube would come out. Kohler came out with an upgrade to that flush valve. it replaces the center post and cap with the new yellow cap that the tube goes over. Problem solved! the centerpost kit is a GP229656. There are instructions on the package for changing out the centerpost