I keep hearing praises about ProPress joints.

I have a project involving total replacement of polybutylene supply pipes in the dark and creepy crawlspace under my house and I am considering alternatives to soldering to minimize soldering in a pretzel position too much.

One option I am considering is ProPress. I keep hearing ProPress is as good as solder but ProPress fittings have o-rings inside, yet one of the complaints about sharkbite type fittings is they have o-rings which would eventually fail. Isn't ProPress kind of a compression seal? If so why the need of o-rings?

Another option is to use soft tubings to minimize joints, but I have a hard time visualizing myself navigating the crawlspace while uncoiling the tubing as I go. In addition, I have had bad luck with soft tubings in the past where you need to make a joint is a section of slightly out of round requiring you to finesse it first to fit a fitting over it.

PEX is another option but PEX is not for outdoors and crawlspace are technically outdoors, and I know I have snakes, rats, possums, raccoons roaming the space and could bite through PEX tubings.



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First seriously figure out how to make sure your crawl space is critter free.
call Billy the Exterminator if needed!

then repipe in PEX. wouldn't even think of any other material as an option.

I'm not looking for long hours in a crawl.

the ProPress fitting works by the O ring making a water tight seal. This
O ring is under the crimped copper of the fitting after the tool grabs and squeezes.
tool cost plus higher fitting costs plus additional labor to cut, ream and de-bur pipe
make this method seem overkill just to get copper pipe.



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Pex is fine for out doors just keep it out of the sun.Been using Pex for over 25 years and never...never never see anything try to eat thru it.

I hear a lot of PEX pipes chewed by rats and mice.

May be is more common in the south?

I spoke to two plumbers locally both advised against PEX for this reason. One said I could try the aluminum core PEX as long as I coat the tubing's outside with dishwashing detergent it may deter the critters.

So the o-rings in ProPress if one fails one day would the joint leak or continue to work?

For a copper compression fitting like a stop valve, my understanding is the nut as it advances on the thread compresses the ferrule to make the seal. Everything is metal. No o-rings.

For a ProPress fitting what is the purpose of the o-rings? I think from reading it these joints are kind of like a "crimp" connection so I am thinking is the purpose of the o-rings to just stabilize the slight gap between the pipe and fitting as one is inserted into the other taking into account the machine tolerances and variances so during the compression process it is as even all the way around as can be but once the compression is completed the o-rings are redundant?



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The rings are not going to leak.

"The rings are not going to leak."

I am trying to understand why that is. As I said in the original post if I look around at reviews, reports and experiences from plumbers the MAIN reason they do not trust Sharkbite fittings is because of the o-rings inside them making the actual seals. The Sharkbite basically use metal teeth to prevent the pipe from backing out (hence the name Sharkbite) and the rubber gasket to make the joint water tight. I see comments like:

"the o-rings are accidents waiting to happen".

"the chlorine used in water distribution will eventually cause ANY plastic parts to disintegrate over time".

All the concerns seems to be on the longevity of the o-ring or rubber gasket inside and the reason why Sharkbites cannot be trusted for anything other than a temp solution. I myself have a bunch of mostly SB and John Guest caps to put on stubouts but never use it for permanent installations.

So I am trying to understand why the ProPress o-rings do not seem to suffer the same criticism. Plastic is plastic and if domestic water has chlorine that will eat into the plastic why are ProPress o-rings not subject to the same problem? Is it because ProPress o-rings are newly invented super magical teflon titanium infused plastic or is it the plastic in ProPress is merely a redundancy or is there another explanation.

Comparing sharkbit and John guest fittings with Propress is like Hyundai against a Lamborghini.The Propress (fitting) system has had a few issues to deal with one being the switch with removing the lead from copper witch messed up alot of the Plumbing industry not just Propress.There were some growing pains to deal with the Much Harder copper.The system is not for you Sum...I get it...My spidey senses tell me if the system was $99 at Big Orange you would all be falling over yourself to buy 3 of them.



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sum, if it is any consolation, I still solder my copper fittings.
at this point in my career, I am way past investing a few thousand in a propress machine and heads.
not to mention restocking a whole slew of fittings etc.

we went thru these type transitions before.

lead and oakum to no hub.

copper drains to PVC

copper water pipe to pex.

each brought cynicism from those of us who are/were cemented in our ways.

drag yourself and your torch down the crawlspace, put on a little quiet music and solder away.

The "O rings MAKE the seal. The "press" just locks the tubing into the fitting. It does NOT compress to seal the joint.

You forgot galvanized pipe to copper, to polybutylene, to PEX. Each step simplified the process and dumbed down the tradesman.

Sum, you have a great question ... IF o-rings are the issue, future potential problems THEN why aren't all brands and types of fittings with o-rings not seen as having an issue.

Anyone?

Is the difference that one requires a $2000 tool, and the other (shark bite) is sold at big orange and requires zero tools or skill or knowledge?

Perhaps the professionals view that one as a threat to the trade?

Just asking! Personally I would rather have soldered copper.

one can have solid metallic piping with solder joints (silver-solder in days of yore)

or

one can have sections depending on 'O' rings hidden in the walls

but

today, the 'mantra' is : 'never stop improving' with 10 year fixtures and appliances



.... MY home is type 'L' copper with 95-5 solder (too lazy to actually silver-solder)


@hj, don't forget the 'B' tubing (copper with the same OD as IPS) albeit short lived

==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

Does not work like that HJ...the Propress o-ring is compressed 50% making a seal that will last 50+ years.

NoHub, I never mentioned money in the equation of deciding which way to go, not that cost is not an issue but at least to me it's important to understand why ProPress may be an option. I get that it's advantages are (1) no need for a torch and open flame thus safer and quicker (2) will work even with a dripping water line and (3) No need for a hot work permit where it is required.

I don't know if I would buy it even if it's $99 at the big box stores, it will completely depends on why ProPress fittings' o-rings are apparently immune against the chlorinated water that seems to cause problems with other fittings that use plastic gaskets and o-rings.

It's not for you Sum.

the Viega company offers a 50 year warranty on ProPress fittings.

Uponor's aquaPEX is 25 years.

wonder what the life expectancy or warranty is on type L copper? would not suggest installing type M copper.

50 years for most copper Manufacturers.

'any' warranty is merely for the price of material, not for labor or any resulting water damage


so


if one fitting fails and destroys the property the cost of said fitting is refunded - prorated for years of service




==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

well my friend from SC.
years ago (15-20) I plumbed a new house.
I installed a vanity in the basement bath on a Friday afternoon. no leaks..
over the weekend it leaked and caused over 4000 dollars damage.
upon close inspection the copper tube that was factory soldered into the bottom of the cold water valve was defective. the solidified flux held but over the weekend it leaked.
I made a claim against my liability insurance who then went after kohler co as it was clearly defective.
took them 4 months but kohler did send a check.
my point... if it is the fault of a defective fitting, they must pay.
BTW, after taking many pictures of the defective faucet valve, it was sent out to kohler for their inspection.
to be clear, this is an internet picture of the type valve . copper factory soldered into valve body.

I was NOT referring to the "O" ring. I was addressing his idea that the copper fitting was being compressed to make a metal to metal seal, which is not the case.

packy,


a failed rubber 'o' ring after 5-10 years would NOT be a defective fitting - merely a warranty issue - if that


think 'chloramine'




==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

If I google 'propress burst strength' I'm not able to find anything definitive. You can find youtubes of sharkbites blowing apart. Both are o-ring seals. Perhaps the propress holds better.

I'm not averse to new & better ways of doing things, but they should be proven before hiding them inside walls where they can cause damage. Soldered joints have passed the test of time.

... silver-soldered joints are stronger than, and will outlast, the Cu tube itself


for the DIYers: remember type 'M' minimum code compliant tube is NOT good practice for potable water - type 'L' is preferred

==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

Actually Viega states if you take the orings out the pipe will still seal. The orings are redundant. There are multiple videos demonstrating this. Nibco fittings too!