So this is a house I recently purchased and it has natural gas services to some of the appliances (kitchen range, dryer and water heater). I have never used gas services so this is a new one for me to learn about.

I had to turn on the gas services that the last owner turned off just last week. All these appliances were working fine last month during the inspection.

So the tech from the gas company came out today to turn on the gas. Before he did that he turned OFF the shutoff at each of the three appliances - range, dryer and water heater. He said the tests he ran indicated the lines are fine, no leak. So far so good.

Next he said he turned on the appliances and his tests (he said he was using air) indicates there is a leak somewhere.

If all the shutoff valves are turned OFF there is no leak, he concluded the leak is downstream of the shutoff valves, between that and the actual appliance.

I then asked him, if this is the case, can he turned off two of the three appliances, in different combinations, so as to isolate which appliance is leaking? He said he already did that, and the conclusion is they are all leaking.

All leaking? He said yes. His said these are his tests:

RANGE VALVE OFF
DRYER VALVE OFF
WATER HEATER VALVE OFF
NO LEAK

RANGE VALVE ON
DRYER VALVE OFF
WATER HEATER VALVE OFF
LEAK!

RANGE VALVE OFF
DRYER VALVE ON
WATER HEATER VALVE OFF
LEAK!!

RANGE VALVE OFF
DRYER VALVE OFF
WATER HEATER VALVE ON
LEAK!!!

So he cannot turn on gas for me until this is rectified.

I guess I need to call a plumber to trouble shoot this since I am not familiar with gas fixtures and plumbing.

But my question is what is the chance of all three appliances are showing a leak, after the shutoff valve? Not one but all three?

Is it possible his tests are not reliable?

I have included some picture of each appliance showing the section between the valve and the actual appliance, but I am not sure that would be useful, but here goes.

RANGE





WATER HEATER







DRYER

sum, with a simple pressure tester like this you can remove the drip cap at the water heater, screw this on, put 5-10 PSI into the system and go around with a windex bottle full of kids bubble solution and check for leaks yourself.


this is what i spray on piping to find leaks. it is cheap, non-toxic and bubbles like crazy.

I don't see any power cord to the water heater, so that has to have a pilot light. There is no thermocouple on the pilot, only the gas valve itself, so as soon as the gas is on, it is flowing from the pilot. Simply re-light the pilot after the gas is back on, but pilot gas usage may show as a leak on sensitive equipment. The stove and dryer should have electronic ignition (no pilot light) so they shouldn't be showing a leak, but it's unlikely that all of a sudden everything leaks after being off for a few weeks.

You can actually buy gas leak detector, but kids bubble solution sounds like a good option if you have some around the house. Did the gas guy lock the meter in the off position, or can you turn it on and look for leaks? If you can turn it on, open one appliance at a time and start soaping the connections.



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Not a plumber by trade but a fierce DIYer



Edited 1 times.

LIGuy, the copper tube coming down from the left side of the control valve is the thermocouple.

He makes a point though......is there a standing pilot on all 3 of those appliances?

Yes, the gas valve has a thermocouple, the pilot does not. The thermocouple senses whether the pilot light is lit and if not, won't open the gas valve.

Newer electronic models with no standing pilot use a 2-stage flame sensor. A call for heat opens the pilot valve which is lit by the igniter, then once pilot flame is verified, the second stage opens the gas valve.

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Not a plumber by trade but a fierce DIYer

LIGuy, the thermocouple affects both the main burner and the pilot. The pilot light does not have a continuous gas supply. It either needs to have the control knob pushed in or the thermocouple sensing flame to have a gas supply. The control valve could be bad, causing gas seepage.

You're right, not sure what I was thinking there. I guess I was thinking of a stove with a standing pilot. Thanks for keeping me honest

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Not a plumber by trade but a fierce DIYer

ONLY "ancient" heaters have a "constant" pilot that is not controlled by the safety unit in the thermostat. So, the pilot does NOT "flow" gas until the control knob is turned to pilot and depressed for lighting.

I still wonder what is the chance all three of these devices are leaking all of a sudden? Could there be another explanation?

I don't think I am going to try to detect the leak myself (if one exists). I have to get a gas plumber in here.

So one question is, should I just go ahead and replace all three shutoff valves and the line from there to the WH, dryer and range?

In other words, instead of asking someone to "find the leak in all three places and fix them" should I just get someone to "replace the shutoff valve, and redo all three sections from there to the devices"?

Don't replace anything until discovery of the leak(s).

"But my question is what is the chance of all three appliances are showing a leak, after the shutoff valve? Not one but all three? I still wonder what is the chance all three of these devices are leaking all of a sudden? Could there be another explanation?"

I have a suspicion it is because...

"this is a house I recently purchased"

And the previous owner made the house ready for sale by

1. Adding a water and sediment drip leg to the hot water heater (no corrosion on the cut threads)
2. Installing a brand new flex gas line at the range (gleaming bright yellow line that is clean free of grease/dust)
3. Perhaps installed a new old stock line at the dryer (the aluminum color is older, but something may have been done there based on how the fittings mate to the older piping)

The previous owner may have been prodded into action by a previous home inspector or loan inspector or termite inspector or previous buyer in a contract that fell through... something where some service work was done on all three gas appliances to "bring them up to standard", but where the person actually doing the work was too timid to tighten all the threaded fittings sufficiently, and too incompetent or lazy to test for leaking before leaving the job.

That is one plausible scenario to explain the otherwise unlikey coincidence that all three appliances are leaking. All three appliances were recently messed with, and if they were messed with by the same person, a person who doesn't tighten things sufficiently for fear of over tightening, and a person who doesn't test for leakage... that could potentially be what is happened, especially given the recent sale.



"should I just go ahead and replace all three shutoff valves and the line from there to the WH, dryer and range?"

No, you should use the leak testing solutions previously provided in this thread, or hire someone to diagnose where exactly the leaks are located. Test, don't guess. No need to throw parts at it. At least one of the lines is already brand new (the yellow one to the range). And the drip leg install looks more recent than the gas pipe feeding the water heater.




"In other words, instead of asking someone to "find the leak in all three places and fix them" should I just get someone to "replace the shutoff valve, and redo all three sections from there to the devices"?"


Test for leaks, fix the leaks as required. I suspect it could be as simple as tightening a fitting. But the exact fitting should be identified first.



Edited 1 times.

Where does that copper line, that comes off the W/H tee and goes into the wall, go?

"Where does that copper line, that comes off the W/H tee and goes into the wall, go?"

steve, I am not sure. Very good question. I will find out. May be there is a forth gas devices somewhere...although I can't imagine what that could be.

1. The gas line to the heater is NOT adequate for natural gas.
2. The line into the wall is probably also undersized for whatever it supplies.

"I still wonder what is the chance all three of these devices are leaking all of a sudden? Could there be another explanation? "

Yes, there is a chance all three are leaking. Multiple problems with any system are not surprising. If there's one there's two.

Based on your photos I recommend getting a gas pipe specialist to re-pipe all or sections of gas piping. Get a few quotes ands see what the pros think. This is not a DIY project in my opinion. Permit? Most definitely.

Quote

..... So he cannot turn on gas for me until this is rectified.

I guess I need to call a plumber to trouble shoot this since I am not familiar with gas fixtures and plumbing. .....

yes, definitely call a gasfitter/plumber

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"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

I would advise sum to pressurize and soap test before hiring someone.
it just may be a simple fix.
I also think if the gas company employee absolutely hated the work he would have red tagged it and locked the meter.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but, does anyone else find it odd that the gas company, basically, tested all his appliances for leaks? Suppose there weren't any present....would he refuse to turn the gas on?

I have never heard of the gas company doing a air test. Around here they turn on the meter and clock it if there is any movement on the dial they lock out the meter until a licensed plumber or gas fitter finds the leak and fixes it. And then it has to be inspected with a air test. Before gas co will unlock the meter.

A common cause for what you describe is an adapter being installed wrong. Gas is extremely dangerous and your installation must be installed by a Licensed and qualified (Trade School Trained) Plumber that knows what he is doing. Hire someone that fits that description. Here in California we must use Corrigated connectors that approved by the Building Department and the State.

He did lock the meter and issued a hazardous condition ticket. Said the meter cannot be turned back on until it is serviced by a plumber.

Paul48, yes.

I have not owned any gas appliances until now.

I have to be present when the gas company arrives. If I am not there they issue a no show and charge me $50.

He also said at least one appliance must be in good working order for the gas meter to be turned on. In my case he sees a leak in all three lines after the shutoff so it's a no go. So to answer your question if there is no appliance there is no service.

steve, I was able to trace that line that branched off from the water heater. That shutoff valve controls two devices.

From the water heater shutoff this line disappeared into the wall.



The other side of the wall is outside. There is an outside bar there with water and drains. I believe at one point there might have been an outdoor grill? But not anymore.



There was over 8" thick of leaves layered over the patio stone ground outside. When I pulled out the small copper tubing turned out it's has another shutoff and I guess it's abandoned since the copper was kinked and folded?







So I think it's safe to remove that tee and abandon all this. Not sure if all that could contribute to the water heater line getting a pressure drop when it's shutoff turns on?

I would get rid of all the copper and run a new flexible appliance connector(corrugated metal tube) from the W/H shut-off valve to the W/H.

OF COURSE remove it all. It is garbage and undersized for any possible reuse. REpipe the heater with a proper sized supply line.

I assume that is what he did, and the dial indicated gas movement.

In that case, in this area it is at least a three day process, and maybe more before the gas is turned on.

If the potential leak is downstream from the appliance cutoff valves, I thought it could damage the regulators to perform a pressure test with those valves open... am I mistaken and you can pressurize the system all the way to the appliances???!!

that's why we only use 5 PSI.

Anybody else see what appears to be a sink shut off valve on the copper tubing outside the house?

At this point if the meter is locked, the only way to do a basic soap test is to introduce compressed air somewhere in the system. I would be inclined to call a good gas plumber to inspect the whole works, fix whatever is wrong and if possible, be there when the gas co. comes back to unlock the meter.

The two most important words when working with gas are "licensed" and "insured".

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Not a plumber by trade but a fierce DIYer

It's a straight gas ball valve.

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Not a plumber by trade but a fierce DIYer

Yes that is a water valve. A few feet over is an outdoor bar/kitchen. The water valve supplies a bar sink, the gas line there used to service an outdoor grill/stove.

I am getting rid if this branch of the gas line.

The bar will stay, and I will repipe the water line to it when I redo the bar sink, faucet and drain.

Ah OK, I thought that was the same line that looped around and then went underground in pipe to the BBQ. Good to know they didn't use that shutoff on a gas line....

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Not a plumber by trade but a fierce DIYer

NO! downstream it has to be a low pressure test.

Sum, any updates on the gas leaks?

So after some schedule shuffling the gas plumber came out today.

Turns out I actually had three leaks - one at each device after their shutoff valves.

Dryer - the shutoff valve was not threaded on tight.

Range - the plumber showed me whoever made the connection used a flared fitting and threaded into the female threads of the shutoff valve and used plumber's putty in the thread to try and seal it but it was leaking.

Water Heater - no leak except the branch steve pointed out which end up being an abandoned grill line to the outside, and that shutoff outside was faulty once the branch was eliminated no more leak.

So all of them are resolved and I will have the gas company out to turn gas on this week, hopefully.