I hope these links to the pics work, or this message will be kind of useless!

This is the tub/shower diverter that was originally installed in a condo I bought. It was built in about 2006 so that's how old this thing is. I don't see the word Moen on it anywhere, but I think that is the brand that they pretty much used for everything in here.

The reason I'm trying to identify it is because something went bad with it where when I turn the water to hot, the water barely dribbles out of the faucet, but it's still running because (A) I can hear it, and ( it leaked down through the floor and into the garage below! I'm hoping once I can get the thing off I can see what went bad and get a replacement part for it, so I need to know what the model number is, etc. if that's the case.

If the faucet is not turned off, nothing is leaking, so it seems to me the leak is coming from the fixture itself where the hot connect to it... sound reasonable?

Thanks,

Doug


[drive.google.com]

[drive.google.com]

It is Moen, but you have to at least remove the handle so we can tell you which part you need, i.e., 1222 or 1225.

Hi,

Regarding the problem I mentioned, does anyone think it's possible that simply replacing the valve (I found a video showing replacement with Moen 1225B Valve) could solve the problem?

I have already identified the make as a Moen, but still don't know the exact model number yet.

I have replaced sink valves due to a drip at the faucet, but this thing is leaking before it gets to the faucet, so I don't know if the valve could also be responsible for that or if something further in must be the cause.

The only access I have to it is to take the handle and face plate off... no panel or anything from the rear.

Thanks,

Doug

Okay, none of my allen wrenches fit so I had to order a new set...might be pretty corroded though so I hope I don't have to drill it out.

-Doug

No telling without removing the plate. The lack of hot water could be caused by a stuck balancing spool, which is a separate item in the Moentrol valve with the 1225 cartridge, but built in to the 1222 cartridge.

Okay, I got the cover taken off but I really didn't/don't see any kind of identifying information printed anywhere.

This is a tenant's unit and there's no separate shut-off for this tub, so I don't want to pull out the existing valve until I have the new one in case I can't get it back in for some reason as I'd have to leave him with no water whatsoever until I could work it out. There's a second bath, so he's okay with this taking a bit of time.

It sounds to me like I should just go buy BOTH of those valve numbers you mention so I have them. If I'm able to pull the existing one out, will it be obvious which one is the correct replacement? I'm going to attach some picture links, but I doubt they'll be helpful (they're just the steps as I took of the pieces, but I checked the pieces and don't see anything on the back of the plate identifying it).


Before I removed anything, I turned to cold and the water ran out of the spout fine. I diverted to the shower and that was fine (cold). As I turned to hot, the water just turned to a dribble out of the spout, and the same thing when I switched to the shower.

I also tried turning it when everything was off by using some vice-grips. As I turned to what would be hot, the water did go from full to dribble, and I could still hear the sound of water flowing through the pipes, but couldn't SEE any water leaking anywhere in there, but I'm guessing it was running down towards the garage, although I only did it for a few seconds.

If you can tell from the pic, where the valve is seated is a bit set back, so I'm hoping I can pop that little clamp thing out somehow in order to even get the valve out -- it's behind the wall a tad, so I can't grab it from above -- any tips on what I can use to pop it up from the front by putting something through that little hole in the top of it or is there a special tool for that?

Basically, I just want to try replacing that valve and if that doesn't fix it I'll have to call in a professional, as I have no access to anything else.

Here are some picture links:


[drive.google.com]

[drive.google.com]

[drive.google.com]


These next two show where I stopped, which may be the only one worth looking at, but I still can't see how I'd identify the part without taking it out...

[drive.google.com]

[drive.google.com]


Thanks so much for the help so far!

-Doug



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1222...

[www.youtube.com]

Hi there,

Just found this youtube video (link below) that says this:

If you PULL OUT to turn on the water, you have the 1225 cartridge, BUT

If you TURN to turn on the water, you have the 1222.

I definitely have to TURN/TWIST to turn on/off the water flow, so if this is correct, I suppose I need the 1222.


Do you know, if the 1222 went bad, could it cause the hot water to leak out into the wall rather than come out of the spout? Like I mentioned in the original post, it apparently isn't that no hot water runs, it's that instead of running into the tub from the spout it ran down the inside of the wall and into the garage below!

Thanks AGAIN!

[www.youtube.com]

LOL, I think I just found that video as you were posting, if it's the same one

I came up with 1222 also, but thanks so much for verifying!

doug, you have the cover off the valve, turn the stem and see if water is coming out where it should not.

Hello,

I did do that -- I turned it with vice grips and it went from a cold flow to a dribble but I couldn't see it coming out anywhere. I could still hear the running water noise from the pipes but just saw the dribble. Although I could not see any leakage, I'm assuming it was running down the walls like before, even though I can't see it.

Moen is sending me a free 1222, so I'll pop it in there and see what happens. It really looks like there's nothing more I can do from the front though, although I can't imagine where the leak would be.

If the tub handle is not turned on, there's no leak, so it can't be in the supply pipes before the fixture, correct? Then, if the fixture is turned to hot, it's leaking somewhere but I can't see it.

If the 1222 doesn't solve it, I suppose I could cut a small hole in the wall since the plumber is going to have to do it anyway... maybe then I'd be able to see something even though I probably can't do anything about it.

-Doug

any chance it may be leaking out of the lower connection between the spout and the fitting? What is back there a twin ell? if you remove the spout and instead thread in a cheap plastic nipple they sell as sprinkler risers, does the same thing happen and leak below? With a skinny nipple in place you may also be able to see if the water is coming from higher up.



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be advised that the path between getting the stem and "popping it in" starts with getting the old one out, and THAT may not be the easy job many posts indicate. I have spent hours extracting the old ones and that is only after using every removal tool in my assortment.

Hmmm, I haven't tried removing the spout yet, but what you're saying might be possible.

I have no idea what kind of connections are there as I can't see anything, but I'm interested in trying to check this possibility. I'm sure I can remove the spout, but I'm not sure what you mean about the cheap plastic nipple (I'll do a search).

Can you give me more detail on what it is you're suggesting with seeing if the water is coming from higher up?

Basically, it sounds like you're saying that the leak could possibly be right at the point where the spout connects to the pipe it is threaded onto, correct? If that's the case, then it would dribble out of the spout like it does and that would also explain why I don't see any water leaking up higher at the area of the valve I'm going to replace, so I like the idea so far... so if I remove the spout and connect something else in it's place that allows me to SEE the connection area, I will see if the water flows out normally, but if not, perhaps I'll see water dripping down, yes?

Good idea...thanks!




"any chance it may be leaking out of the lower connection between the spout and the fitting? What is back there a twin ell? if you remove the spout and instead thread in a cheap plastic nipple they sell as sprinkler risers, does the same thing happen and leak below? With a skinny nipple in place you may also be able to see if the water is coming from higher up."

Hi, thanks for the comment -- yes, I'm afraid that it might be quite difficult to get the valve out. If I can't do it with what I have, I'll spring for that $15 Moen remover tool and hope that does the trick.


"be advised that the path between getting the stem and "popping it in" starts with getting the old one out, and THAT may not be the easy job many posts indicate. I have spent hours extracting the old ones and that is only after using every removal tool in my assortment."

I don't know which tool that is, because I have about 5 different ones to remove Moen cartridges, and sometimes it takes almost all of them.

I am not a pro just a DIYer so my knowledge of the Moen valve itself is limited.

My thinking is if there is a leak happening below, and this leak is not present when the valve is OFF, then it's most likely not the hot or cold supply pipe leading to the valve assembly.

So the leak most likely come from three places: At the highest where the shower arm connects to the pipe behind the wall, in the middle where the valve body connects to the mixed water, and at the lower point where the pipe connects to the tub spout.

It should be fairly easy to determine if the spout is the culprit. Usually the connection behind the wall is a female threaded connection, then a nipple, then the spout threads onto the nipple. Or it could be a copper pipe sticking out of the wall, and the spout is connected to it via some sort of a gasket adapter with a set screw at the bottom. Either way it shouldn't be too difficult to remove the spout from the piping.

If the spout has a diverter knob, which allows you to divert water from the spout to the shower head, that knob is connected to a gate, when you lift the knob, the gate comes up and kind of close off the flow at the mouth of the spout, water has no where to go so it gets diverter to the shower up above. This "gate" is not waterproof, over time it thins, or gets hard buildup on it. Sometimes it will do a poor job or diverting, letting half the water out of the spout and diverting the other half up to the shower. Sometimes it will leak in such a way some of the water coming out of the spout will run back into the wall, outside of the pipes, but inside of the spout body itself.

To make sure this is not happening, I would remove the spout. Once removed, you either have a copper pipe there, or the end of a nipple there. I would then turn the valve on and let water runs out of the pipe or nipple freely. If there is no leak inside the wall as you turn cold to hot and back, then the issue is most likely in the spout. To simulate diverting to the shower head without the spout, you can buy a $1 PVC plastic threaded cap to close off the nipple. If it's a copper pipe, you can use a push-in sharkbite end cap.

I thought about it overnight and am wondering though... if the issue were at the spout in any way, I think I'd be running into the same issue whether using cold or hot water since the spout is after the point where water temp/mix is determined.

It seems to me that you are correct that it can't be at the supply lines or it'd be leaking at all times. I also don't think it can be at the spout or it'd leak hot and cold.

The only thing remaining is somewhere at the point where the hot water enters the fixture. As I'm not familiar with the hardware, I don't know where exactly the leak would be if it is A) only hot water, B/ only when the fixture is opened and turned to hot, and C) I can't see it leaking when looking at the Moen replacement valve thing...

I'm still hoping it is the 1222 replacement, but from everything I read those are to fix water drips at the spout, not to fix water leaking out somewhere in the wall behind the fixture.

I'll try to replace the 1222, assuming I can get the old one out. Then I'll cut a hole in the wall behind the connection so I can hopefully see the leak if the 1222 doesn't fix it. Not sure what else I can really do at this point, but I will take pics when the time comes.

By the way, I highly recommend Moen parts though... they are really good at sending out free replacements, even without proof of purchase. The 1222 lists for about $45 at the big box store here and Moen sent one out right away at my request.

-Doug



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Okay, assuming my setup within the wall looks like this picture, which it basically should, this is why I don't think it could be leaking at the spout connection.

The HOT comes in from the right, the COLD from the left. They get mixed within the central main valve and the water goes either DOWN or UP to spout or shower.

As I mentioned, Cold flows fine to both spout and shower head. Hot does not...only a dribble makes it either up to shower head or down to tub spout -- the rest is running down the inside of the wall somewhere.

Based on this picture, it seems that the only place it could be leaking from is from the main central valve piece, so either the 1222 will fix it, or something within that main valve is cracked, but somehow it is only affecting the hot water, which I can't understand since it looks like a fairly simple piece...seems like it should be leaking just as bad whether hot OR cold if the main thing was cracked.

Maybe the 1222 will fix it after all... now that I look at it I can't really see how it could be anything else and only have the hot leaking. I hope so, anyway.




[drive.google.com]

Definitely a mystery. Like you said, the leak only occurring when it switches to hot is hard to explain if it's at the spout, or at the shower. However it is equally hard to explain if it's at the valve body, even harder to imagine that a crack somewhere on the body could be affected by only the hot side.

I think the 1222 is a pressure balance valve right? So if there is some sort of a clog or debris or failure to the cartridge, where hot water inflow is restricted, so when you switched to hot from cold, the hot side does not increase flow, the cold side will also restrict flow by design as part of the anti-scald design. In this scenerio, the switch to the hot side doesn't necessarily increase the temperature, but instead decrease the volume of the mixed water going to the spout or shower head. This could explain the reduced flow when you turn it to hot. I am inclined to think there is a possibility when the volume/pressure going to the spout is too low or unstable, it may cause the spout diverter gate to not work right and leaks between the spout body and the gate, instead of flowing down the spout of the mouth, back down the inside of the spout back to the wall.

Do you have an endoscope? Those are skinny cable as thin as a coax cable with a camera at the end, connects to a smart phone and you can stick one into the opening at the wall near valve body to look around. If the leak is there you should see water spraying and misting.

Hi everyone,

Okay, I got the 1222 in the mail and swapped it in (more details on that below, for those that may need to do it) and it actually solved the problem!

So, somehow if the cartridge goes bad, it can also cause leaking behind the wall and not just a drip at the faucet when you try to turn it off (which is what people usually replaces the cartridges for).


As far as the "simple replacement" of a Moen cartridge... not so much if you live where the water is horrible (it is in Las Vegas) and it's been in there for 12 years!

Of course, just vice-gripping it and pulling did absolutely nothing, and I've been going to the gym for 5-6 days a week for the past 30 years! Moen includes with the new cartridges a little white plastic thing that slips over the old cartridge that you can then use a wrench to turn. The problem with that is that the little tabs on the old cartridge (where it has the H/C imprint and also at the bottom) sit in a recess of the valve body, so the plastic piece will likely strip/give out before you can make any kind of movement with it.

After struggling with that for a while, I resorted to breaking off those two tabs on the old cartridge, put the white plastic piece on again, and just applied quick "jerky" pressure back and forth on the old cartridge and it finally broke free. Don't try to give it a full 1/4 turn like it shows in the diagram or it probably won't work. I think you need to just go for the tiniest back and forth full-pressure movement to get it break that initial seal. Only then will you be able to try for a 1/8 or 1/4 turn before pulling it straight out, which is STILL not easy.


I never knew a bad cartridge could cause a problem like this, so it's good to know -- I also couldn't find a single post online about a cartridge causing a leak behind the wall, which is what led me here to the experts!

So thanks so much for all of your ideas and advice!

-Doug



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It CANNOT "leak behind the wall" because it is inside a solid brass "container" but it can leak into the "stop tube" and that can leak down into the wall. Every 1222 cartridge is unique as far as extracting it goes, and what works for one person probably will not work for the next one.