I am in the process of purchasing a property, not a rental, but my own residence.

House is old, built in 1941, gone through two major renovations and additions in the 70s and 90s.

Original water supply lines were galvanized pipes, I guess at one point, they replaced all of that, with polybutylene pipes. I have no idea how long ago the polybutylene pipes were installed, I couldn't tell from the permit history, but perhaps it was put in during the last major addition in 1993, which would make it 25 years.

I have heard all sorts of horror stories about polybutylene pipes, disintegration, bursting and rupturing, class action lawsuits, but personally I have never worked with this material, so don't know how much of it is myth and how much facts.

My wife REALLY likes this house (because of kitchen, landscape, layout etc...) and I am kind of scared of polybutylene pipes. Most houses in south Florida are concrete slab homes, but this one is a wood framed home with a crawl space. So if I want to repipe it all, it is doable, with a lot of crawling around.

Thoughts? Is it as bad as buying a house with an Orangeburg sewer line?



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That depends on a number of issues.

1) The chlorine content of the water. If it has or has had high chlorine content then I'd have some concerns.

2) The fittings, if they have aluminum rings I'd have some concerns or if the fittings are cheapy plastic ones I'd have some concerns.

The fittings if they are brass, the crimp rings are copper and the chlorine content has been low, personally I'd be probably be fine with polybutylene.

JMHO

Vic

p.s. There's an old saying: "Happy wife, happy life."

Sum: how many bathrooms does the home have? Just trying to gauge the level of effort for the repipe... I kinda like the angle to use this info as a negotiation tool going in on price, then you can repipe at your leisure and end up with brand new pipes.

Also is it just one story home? So you can minimize busting up the walls?

Polybutylene AND Orangeburg? That is a double whammy. Neither is good and there is no way to tell if they will last a week or 10 years.

Quote

Polybutylene AND Orangeburg?

No not both poly and orangeburg. Drains seem to be a combination of cast iron and PVC. The supply line is polybutylene.

Orangeburg would ALL be outside underground so you would not know unless it was dug up or a neighbor had replaced his.

I am not sure of all the answers.

I think the fittings are brass/copper simply from the color.



A close up down in the crawl space.



As far as chlorine level, I will have to check with the city to see.

Two bathrooms and one kitchen, plus the run to all the outside hose bibs and to and from the water heater.

Wow, some "rough" work ... meaning sloppy plumbing. All I see is copper rings and brass or copper fittings.

Yes, kind of scary.

I wonder, I know PEX is not rated for outdoors, and is a crawlspace "outdoor"?

I am wondering if I do a complete repipe I might try PEX and do a manifold for each "room" which means a lot of "home runs".

If you really like the house, factor some major re-piping in your offer.

If it hasn't leaked than 20 years maybe you have your answer already. I don't like how they didn't support the pipes but they look pretty good shape to me. Who you going to believe your Lyin Eyes what the lawyers tell you?

Never had a problem with PB, its come up on home inspections as a minor concern but here in the south its pretty common. Ive been told by many that the problems lie in the fittings not the pipe itself. Any remodels Ive switched over to pex but if it hasnt leaked by now Id say youre fine. Doubt youll get anything from the seller.

My opinion is to have the house repiped. Keep in mind that cost when you make your offer.
Even if that pipe is not leaking now it's coming up on it's lifetime for sure.

And then let a LICENSED BONDED INSURED JP do the work no offense to you Sum who I know wants to do it yourself. "Homerun" piping makes no sense to me in most cases. Size the pipe correctly and use tees for branches. This is how a pro would do it 99 % of time. I suppose you could use manifold type tees at the bathroom location. Make sure all the hot is insulated. Don't care that it's Florida. You don't want to lose thermal energy through your pipes if you are trying to be efficient. Let the JP know that you would like to have the work inspected by the AHJ and have him or her add this additional cost of paying and obtaining a permit to his written job proposal and price quote. This makes everyone accountable for a quality install.



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I haven't had anythng to do with PB since the class action ended, but prior to that most of the problems were with the tubing, NOT the copper or Acetyl fittings.

Hj, I'm curious in your neck of the woods in potable water how heavy is the chlorine content?

As I understand it (I'm open to learn otherwise) Europe has been using PB for a very long time and continues to do so.

[www.pbpsa.com]

PB resin in the U.S. unlike PEX was only manufactured by one company (Shell) and so the resin was virgin and controlled. I am concerned that some of the PEX mfrs might not have the same quality standards. In otherwords PEX resins from China, India and the U.S. for example might not all be of the same purity.

I haven't spent a lot of time researching all this and am curious if anyone here has.



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Polybutylene TUBE

not

PIPE


... think about it ...

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"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

PEX is also referred to as TUBING, while ORANGEBURG PIPE is called a PIPE. Type M copper is labeled as a PIPE, but thicker same size soft copper is a TUBING. I am not sure the labels is a good indicator of durability, quality etc...

I did end up signing a contract to purchase the house, and the polybutylene didn't give me any advantages in getting a better price. Closing is not till Feb 2019, so I do have some time between now and then to contemplate and plan.

I had hope the closing will be sooner but the seller needs time to find a new home. Otherwise if I try to DIY this project I would appreciate the cooler months in Dec/Jan to get under the crawl space. It will be in the 90s already in Feb in Miami.

NP16, when I said I would like to use home runs I don't mean a home run for every fixture. I mean one run for each location, so for this house with two bathrooms, one bar, one kitchen, and one outside BBQ food preparation areas, I will have a manifold (may be in the garage) with five controls for cold, and three hot water controls as I do not need hot water at the bar or at the BBQ area. I will not have home runs for hose bibs on outside walls they will just tee off from closest point. There will still be tees under each bathroom to go to sink, toilet, lav sink etc...I just like to be able to easily turn off say one bathroom and work on them instead of the whole house. It will cost more pipes but that's a secondary consideration.

The problem with hiring out is I really worry about the quality of the install. Every time (yes I do mean every time) when I hired a plumber down here I end up paying then I take apart the work and DIY anyways. No I am not saying I am more skillful, not at all, but a professional plumber is limited in his time, does what is easiest, & quickest, and uses parts that is readily available in his van at the time of the job. Me, I have all day, all week, all month. I can think about an install for a month before I start, I can afford to stop a project to go get a needed part just because I want to use as little fittings as possible, I can switch to work on electrical or carpentry at the same house while I wait for an online part to be shipped, I don't have clients looking over my shoulders screaming "can I turn water back on YET?" and "how much longer is this going to be?", and most of all, I have the benefit of having all the advice of all the experts at PLBG telling me what to do and more importantly what NOT to do. This is a huge advantage I have...not because I am a better plumber than whoever I hired, but a hired professional doesn't have the time and patience to do the best job possible. They are to make money and they need to be efficient, they don't care about my property as much as I do and pride of workmanship is not a priority in this day and age.

The other concern is damages, especially if access is limited. For example once I paid a plumber to run one pipe, he told me he would get into the attic and run the pipes. But when the day came he didn't want to get into the attic because it was "very hot". OK but he knew the attic is hot, we are in Miami. I have gotten inside the attic myself to run electrical wiring. Yes it's hot. His solution? He took a hammer and put holes in the ceiling every four feet or so, so he could run it below by sticking his hand up through the hole to guide the pipe. He didn't ask me either (I was at work) and just did it. Those are old 1"+ thick plastered ceilings he destroyed and end up with cracks everywhere. He doesn't repair those holes either, that's my problem. I asked him, if he decided to deviate he should have at least ask me before he put holes in my ceiling, and if he were to put holes in the ceiling, I already have recessed lights in the area he is running the pipes, why not just drop down the recessed lights and use their 6" holes. ANSWER: I don't have time for that. TRANSLATION: You the client has time to make old plaster repairs. I don't worry about the repipe in the crawl space so much, I worry about how many big holes I will have for the piping inside the walls. A plumber don't have time to make the access as neat and clean as possible. Me on the other hand, can afford the time to drill small holes, put in a small endoscope, to look around to locate where the risers and manifolds are, may be cut a rectangular hole on the other side of the wall to make room to work, and afterwards make a nice big access panel cover for future repairs.

As far as inspection and permitting. They are useful for real novices, but again, they are hit n miss at best.



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Sum I love all that you wrote, it all makes so much sense.

As a general rule, if it comes in straight 10, 20, 21, etc. lengths, it is pipe.If it comes in coils it is tubing. But, aside from that, you can call it whatever you want to.

Sum,

You are 100% correct.

Sadly,

John S. Bernabeu



ps. Shell's original PB pipe was NOT, repeat NOT, rated for concealed installation, as per Shell's specifications



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"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

Sum IMO it started back in the early 60s when No Hub and later ABS and PVC replaced Cast Iron Hub installations. Anyone with a hack saw and a Pickup Truck suddenly became a "Plumber". And to add to that, the cheap crap from Importers and you see what we get. Qualified Plumbers go through 5 years of Science, Math, and hands on training that justify their wages and they are worth every penny spent. Now attitude is another thing. As for the young men and women who choose to put in the time and effort to study and do the job right, they are rewarded. But it is often a challenge for Shop Owners to find them and gives creditability to much of what you say above, sadly. I still can understand why homeowners and customers stand over you and are concerned at $100 - $150 per hour for service calls.

Sum, well said and why I DIY most of my stuff also. I learned long ago that the "tricks of the trade" the pros use (in all trades) are NOT designed to produce a better work product as much as to make the job go faster. I could never make a living in the trades not because I can't do the work but because I couldn't work fast enough to make a living.

FYI, I think the "outdoor rating" refers more to UV resistance, so your crawl space piping should be fine. Congrats on the new house, I wouldn't worry too much about the piping, replace it over time as you remodel.

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Not a plumber by trade but a fierce DIYer