Anyone has experience with the Grohe 1000 thermostatic valve?



I am looking at the installation instructions and I am a bit perplexed.

Here is a link to the product page on Grohe.

[www.grohe.ca]

There is a link to the technical specs and parts diagram on this page.

What I am trying to understand is how to "work" the "S-UNIONS". The product comes with a pair of S-UNIONS like this to connect the inside piping to the exposed valve.



I think I understand the purpose of this S-union. It is to allow some variations in the hot and cold wall pipe separation, and most likely, they have a different pair of S-UNIONS for each market they sell to, if it's Europe they provide metric unions and if it's USA they provide english unions.

What I don't understand is how these offset looking unions are to be installed.

If you look at the install diagram it says the hot and cold pipe outlets are to be roughed 5-7/8" + or - 9/16" apart. OK. So there is some wiggle room. Now let's suppose I roughed it in so hot and cold are an even 6" apart on the level.

Now I thread in the pair of unions, and tighten. They are going to stop when it's properly tightened, which means the outlet side of the unions will be a different distance apart and most likely not level. Am I supposed to continue to "crank tight" the pair of unions until they are level with each other and they are exactly the distance between the inlets of the exposed valve? That seems like it would be difficult to do...more difficult then just roughing the hot and cold exactly level and fixed distance to begin with.

What am I missing here?

That's basically the same as the unions on a commercial sink faucet. You snug them up and then if need be you tighten one or the other union up to get the correct spacing.

You are missing nothing. That is the way you do it. You just have to adjust them so they are level and the proper distance apart, which can take some "jockeying".

If you "tighten one" it will no longer be level with the other one, so you have to adjust both.

Quote

..... until they are level with each other and they are exactly the distance between the inlets of the exposed valve .....

CORRECT

Their 'purpose' is to correct the inevitable slight error(s) on the rough-in

DON'T SCRATCH THE CHROME

You will need a 'tappet wrench' (thin) or a SMALL adjustable to grab the 'flats'.



welcome to the world of actual plumbing

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"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638



Edited 1 times.

quote; They are going to stop when it's properly tightened,

It depends on your definition of "properly tightened". Some here would say so many turns hand tight and then two with a wrench, but my definition is when they are "tight" regardless of any formula, stopping before the point where they are level, then gradually tighten them alternately until they ARE level and also the proper distance apart.

ditto

==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

That's why I think this is difficult to do because you have to deal with the distance and level at the same time. You also can't turn it backwards, so if you are shooting for 1:00 and you overshoot to 1:30, you can't go back to 1:00 you have to go another full revolution right? So they tend to be over tightened is what I am thinking. It's just a tricky thing to do.

I think the way I would approach it is not to worry about 5-7/8" + or - 9/16" rough in distance, but instead measure the valve inlet distance and rough in exactly to that, whatever it is. Then on attaching the S-UNIONS to thread them in so that they rotating in and ending in the same orientation, as I feel they are getting close, I will tighten them a tiny amount on each at a time, making sure they are both at 12:00, 12:15, 12:30, 12:45, 1:00, 1:15...etc that seems to be the only way to be sure.

The more accurate the 'roughing' the easier the trim install.

==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

quote; them a tiny amount on each at a time,

That is EXACTLY how you do it, checking for level first, then distance. I do not have a problem with backing them off sightly.

But if you look at the instructions, it seems to suggest you can be off quite a bit on the rough in, say rough the hot and cold 5.5" apart and one being 1/2" higher than the other, then rely on the S-unions to compensate by one having to be at 3:00 while the other at 10:45 would be a big challenge.

I agree.

There is a limit to how far they can be off vertically and horizontally. The assumption is that you will be close and then use the offsets to compensate for the discrepancy.

O-M-G

we agree twice in a row



==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

Sum, is this a new install, ie bath remodel or are you replacing existing shower valve without opening the wall? It seems that the S-unions are intended to help you line up the new fixture with existing plumbing.

I just completed the rough-in for our wall-mounted faucet for the vessel lavatory in the hall bath. The faucet body came with plaster guards that indicated where the finished wall must lie, so the mounting depth was spec'd by the mfr, and I had to figure mounting height based on the fixture. I installed the faucet body per those specs and then ran the plumbing to it. Unless the pipes are black iron or fastened in the wall where you can't undo them, 1/2" copper has a fair amount of play in it...you shouldn't have to get the rough in so exact.

You're still gonna need regular unions as disconnects in addition to the provided S unions.

NO, you will NOT need additional unions.

That is the whole POINT of a 'splash back mount'.

The concealed piping has NO serviceable or replaceable parts.

You will use 'drop ear' threaded elbows in the wall.

You will NEVER need to open the wall unless the piping itself fails.


Like I said before: 'real plumbing'


example of the same TYPE of mount:



==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638



Edited 1 times.

Ahhh OK, I see what you mean. This installation assumes that the drop ears are already in the wall and you use the S-Unions to adjust the centers as necessary to line up with the faucet body.

I was thinking this was the same as the wall-mounted lav faucet I just installed....but it's different, on mine the valve body is mounted in the wall, it's not completely external like this Grohe.

I am replacing an existing valve in an existing bath that has 24"X24" 3/8" thick rectified porcelain tiles.

The wall the valve is on is an exterior wall, which means 8" thick concrete blocks, wood furring strips, and cement backer boards over it, then the tiles. The old valve has failed and was leaking and the pipe that leads up to the old shower head has been abandoned in a previous remodel who knows how many years ago. In order to find that end I would have to remove more tiles, and I only have ONE single spare tile. So that limits what I can do in this 24X24 opening.

That's why I am opting to go this route. I can do an exposed valve and mount an adjustable bar for a hand shower (and for soap and other accessories).

The hot and cold will be run to where they need to be, then the S-UNIONS connected. The pipes inside need to terminate on well secured drop ear 90s, as the means of support for such a heavy valve is through the piping. There is no mounting holes whatsoever from the valve to the finished wall at all.

The puzzling part to me is they spec'ed the rough in as 5-7/8" +/- 9/16". That's over an inch of play. It almost seem to encourage the consumer to NOT rough it the exact separation between the inlets on the faucet, because that separation is no where on the instructions. From the feedback I get on this thread, I am going to ignore the instructions, and instead measure the faucet inlet separation distance, say that's 6.2". Half of that is 3.1". I will measure from edge of tub to edge of tub and mark the mid point. Then I go 3.1" left and right and rough in the drop ear 90s to those spots.

I think those S-unions are provided to allow some very minor adjustments. Also I think it's provided as a way to not have to make a valve for different market regions where the standard connection fittings may be different. You can make the same faucet, then use a different pair of S-unions for metric and English installations.

Another variable that is on the instructions is there is also a limit on the depth of the connection. This is because the S-UNIONS have threads on it for the coned shaped escutcheons, and the "slanted" portion of the S-unions are to be behind walls. Now imagine the left S-union is slanted towards ten O clock and the right S-union is slanted towards two o clock, how would you take a piece of tile, drill two holes such that the holes would be centered on the outer portion of the S-union, but you still need to pass the two slanted and offset shanks over the tile? So those S-unions have to more or less point the same way, which means the rough in has to be very close. Or else you spend a lot of time playing with those to get them to be level with exact distance apart, only not to be able to get them through tiles holes. If you put the tiles on first, then the holes has to be drilled to the centers of the drop ear 90, not the final valve inlet locations.

Armageddon is coming. I guess Locals 1 and 130 can coexist.



Edited 1 times.

quote;Unless the pipes are black iron or fastened in the wall where you can't undo them,

WHO would use "black iron" for water lines, and they SHOULD be fastened in the wall so they cannot move.

Show them a Chicago 444 which has several INCHES of adjustment.

You are OVERTHINKING again. Just put the drop ears in place with stub out nipples. The "cone" pieces fit into the round escutcheons and are OUTSIDE the wall, not into the tile.

Quote

..... the "slanted" portion of the S-unions are to be behind walls .....

NO NO NO

The 'slanted' parts are OUTSIDE the finished wall.

I would rough the drop ells face flush to finished wall.

The escutcheons go over the male tapered threaded part of the 'unions' which screws into the drop ell.

The offsets are EXPOSED.

See my 'typical' example above (the offsets are pointed down).

[www.kenangorgun.com]

==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638



Edited 1 times.

another example:



with, as hj states, several INCHES of adjustment

==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

BUT the reality is there isn't really "SEVERAL INCHES of adjustment".

The hot and cold supply locations, once roughed in, is fixed in place. The faucet you posted has large offset connection pieces, not sure how large, let's say 4". That's almost like a door lock lever.

Let's say the distance between hot and cold on the faucet inlets are 5" apart.

If you go to the hot and cold supply roughed in locations, and draw a 4" circle around each, representing where the offset arms (S-UNIONS) are going to end up. The faucet has to be installed at a height, where a HORIZONTAL separation between the two circles are exactly 5". There may be ONE, or TWO locations where this works.

To say you have several inches of adjustments can confuse the novice installers (like me) into thinking that there is plenty of room for play and one can afford to be "sloppy" in the rough in positions. Not so, one has to be really careful in the rough in positions (and depths) and not have to rely too much on the final adjustments.

The faucet pictured has a LOT of room for adjustment...the stub outs could be anywhere from 1" to 12" apart it looks like. What you can't control then is the height of the faucet, it will wind up at whatever height make the arms meet with the supply lines.

sum,

? Is the faucet installed yet ?



==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

That's not how I see it.

Once the hot and cold outlets are roughed in, yes you can rotate the offset arms all the way around in a circle.

Now look at the two circles. Where can you install the faucet? It must be along a horizontal line running through the two circles where the intersections are apart by the exact distance between the faucet inlets. Unless you are OK with installing the faucet out of level, there is only one or two positions at most for it to work.

Nope, I haven't even done the rough in yet. I have to first repair the damages to the hollow block, then install the wood blocking to secure the brass 90s. Then the pipe fittings. The finished faucet is at least a month away, I have to rebuild another 40' of leaning fence thanks to Irma before I get back to this. I am just thinking ahead to make sure I have a good strategy once I do get to it.

sum,

nope

the purpose is precisely FOR leveling the faucet EXACTLY even if the roughing is 'significantly off'

go with the mfgr's specs re: plus or minus

the trade off for leveling is a loss of 'center'

==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

Like ALL offset connectors, there are TWO positions which work, one high and one low. You ALWAYS have to know what you are working with.The 444 faucet was just an example of a faucet with a large adjustment BEFORE the pipes are installed. Once they are fastened in place you work within the parameters.

YOu mean you have weeks of stressing out before you even get the faucet?

hj, my "plan ahead" lead time allows me to properly overthink and make sure no stone left unturned.

install the freakin' faucet already

==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

Except you seem to find a LOT of stones to turn over.

He DOESN'T even have it yet. He is just stressing about how he will do it WHEN he gets it. I guess it is a SUM thing. Put the elbows at the "optimum" distance between their centers AND level, and the faucet will almost install itself.



Edited 1 times.

Not sure if I'm reviving an old thread, I don't see any dates.
I'm doing the rough-in for an exposed piping shower assembly. The exposed wall couplers are not offset and they have a fixed trim piece.



I'm planing to use a drop ear and nipple in the wall.
It seems like I will have to be extremely accurate for the distance out of the finished wall for end of the nipple. This is worrying considering the tile isn't up yet.
Am I doing this correctly?
Do I really need to be that accurate to where the coupler is both tight to the wall and properly tightened on the nipple at the same time? If I don't nail it how would I even know if it's leaking? No way to do a leak test until the tile is in and the coupler is installed.

You may need to MAKE a nipple of the proper length to make a flush fit against the tile.

Leave 2 - brass 6" nipples 'stubbed out' before the tile work (capped with water on if desired).

After the tile work you can mark them for cutting to desired/required length.

You will need to be almost perfect with the 'spread' and the 'level' but should err on the side of too deep in wall as you can cut the correct length nipples for flush fit.

Yes, you can cut ANY, repeat ANY, length you need from 'short' to 6".

Looks like you have 'trim' which actually requires plumbing work

==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638