Went to a call yesterday in a high rise condo where cpvc was used on the whole plumbing system. I would say the condos, stacked three high, is worth a cool $800,000.

Homeowner just bought the property overlooking the ohio river and is very concerned about the piping. He had another plumber there before installing a sink and also complained of the piping in the property.

I was going to attempt to put in a water softener, and put it right next to where the main comes in and where the water heater is.

This customer has no complaints of me using copper piping to tie into; since the 7 minute video shows copper as the material used for installation with brass shut-off ball valves.


The problem was, and this is knowledge speaking from prior experiences, was the water pressure was tested at 75lbs. The main where I can tie into this line is between a short-boy water heater and furnace that is wall mounted. Very difficult to get to when I do this job.

I was going to use a 3/4" copper sweat to 3/4" CPVC FLOW-GUARD Union to make the connection back to main over top of water heater.

Here is why I didn't do this yesterday while I was there:


I had to go buy the glue specifically for the piping since the other types won't work. I usually have some of this on the truck but by the time I go to use it....it dries up and isn't any good.

The glue specifically states on the can states that product can be pressurized after two hours of joint being made. But, it does not say how much pressure, it does not say whether it is water or air that they talk of, and I am sure they are meaning water.

So here is why I didn't do this work.

I can put a water softener in probably less than two hours, and hooking this up and pressurizing this joint within that time period would jeopardize the joint.

Granted,,,,this was an after hours call...so it was difficult to stay even later to complete job. (Overtime Rates)


If some didn't think about this,,,,I did.

If I put that unit in,,,,,walk away following product specs on timeline for ability to pressure up that connection, the couple both take showers and go to bed, and the water heater cycles and produces up to 30lbs of thermal expansion bringing the total pressure on that CPVC joint to over 100lbs.

I would say that I would be paying for a condo I will never live in probably because the joint would of broke loose. I would say that this would be putting this new solvent weld joint to the test.

Maybe not today.......or tomorrow.......maybe next week or next month. I have taken this material out before close to water heaters where this material snaps like dried twigs.


I have had pvc drain lines do this without even having pressure on them...??????? Granted, it was just a bad solvent weld, but........you can get those in copper too; but you find the solder ones right away.


So here is what I have planned....Set the call up for Friday morning at 7 am, install unit and not pressurize the water system until 7 pm that evening; giving a solid 12 hours for that connection to cure and be a trustworthy joint. These condos are stacked three high....and the damage a water line busting would be over a 100,000.


Another reason, it also states on the glue that if the solvent-weld connection is used in areas where the temperature is over 110F, you must use caution in this process. Customers have thier water tempeture set at a considered high 135 degrees......HOT!

That is where the thermal expansion came into play with my reasoning knowing it could creep back to that joint. I explained that a expansion tank would be a good idea but decided to decline since it is another cost added on to the bill.




I could care less about this piping; it cost me two hours of my time and if I was working on copper, I would of made my money and left with a customer trusting his piping in condo. Copper piping has an excellent history in my area, and the only reason the piping was installed in this sort of high end housing was to save money.....and keep people from stealing the pipe before it gets covered by drywall.



And guess what, he is a rep for Kohler. Him and I was cutting up that if Kohler started making thier faucets out of CPVC, Kohler would be out of business tomorrow.



So you plastic pipe lovers, have at it, I am two hours in the hole because of this piping. Feel free to quote my words, I enjoy the double exposure.



SO MAKE IT GOOD , MY KNOWLEDGE SAVED ME $100,000 LAST NIGHT.



Anyone ever heard of a high-end plastic faucet? You never will.

Why do you think the joint will break after curring for 2 hours?
Why could a bad copper solder joint not fail after 2 hours?
I will give you that the cure time will effect your time there but if you were doing a large job(like a whole house) the cure time would not matter.

Copper joints usually don't fail if they are done right; and if they aren't they usually show up instantly when the pressure is put on.

Doesn't matter if it was a whole house.

We are talking of one joint , alot of pressure, and a high temperature against recommendations of the product.

But, I'm sure the uninformed will type.

Dunbar you are most likely right! I have seen CPVC blow out after the two hour period! It aint pretty. You do not have this problem with PEX at all though. If you use Everlock fittings on high pressure points, you will never have so much as a drip and I don't care what the pressure gets to. (Within reason of course, but PEXa burst pressure is about 795# and the everlock fitting will still not fail when the wall blows out.)

Copper of course is not subject to any of this either. I think you saved yourself some headache.

Dunbar,
I have used copper,poly,galv.and cpvc.
I am stillnot sure about pex.
Down here the piping of choice is flowgaurd gold cpvc. Even though there are a lot of Builders that want copper.
I like cpvc and trust it enough that I put it in my new house under the slab.
Yes there is drytime involved with cpvc but for someone like you; someone that does not use it to ofton. you can use compression fittings to adapt to copper or pex they are the same outside diamator.
When I replaice a water heater that some one has piped directaly to with cpvc I cut it back glue the male adaptor on the open pipe , change the water heater hooking it up with flex lines and turn the water on. I do not worry aboutthat connection at all.
By the way I usely change out the heaters from drive up to check within one hour.

If the water poses no problem to the copper then use it. and for those times when you have to deal with cpvc / pex find the best way to convert to what you like.

The best thing that copper has over cpvc is the fact that you have to know how to solder were cpvc the rookie will almost close the joint with glue and you can't tell untill you cut the joint open.

And yes I use only brass or copper faucets. I will not put in those plastic ones even a cust faucet.

Southern Plumber

I was afraid to use compression fitting because I have a tendency to overtighten those fittings......and with plastic piping I could crush it possibly.

That and I cannot find a water meter to find the PRV either at the pit or in the house. I am afraid that one surge will cause a compression to fail.


That, and this condo is on a mountainside.


I thought I was going to have to throw my plumbing rig in bulldog to come up the hill.

Man I never realizes how different the problems we have across this country. Untill I found this website.
When a Plumber would come down here and apply for a job with the company I work for I would not always understand why they did some of the things they did. I am learning why.
I would have to change the way I think a lot if I went to your neck of the woods.

If you are not sure on comp. fittings keep in mind the Quest comp. fittings are also the same o.d. as copper .
good luck
southern plumber

If your plumbing code has adapted ASTM D-2846-69T CPVC is not permited to direct connect to any water heater. That standard calls for approved matallic piping materal to terminate a minimum 18 inches from the water heater. Also CPVC is also not suitable for temperatures above 180 degrees that instantaneous type (coil or immersion) water heaters can produce.

That is what amazes me on this install. They used 3/4" CPVC Male Adapters right into the water heater, and also the T&P is ran in this. My work will replace all of it with copper to the heater with a dielectric union. This limits me to just one connection to CPVC off the main.


This job looks like the inspectors are looking the other way; structure is only two months old.



I would say within five years......someone could accidently hit the water lines going into the water heater and snap right off. I am sure that the furnace man will use extreme caution in this matter.

Maybe I'm one of your so called "uninformed" but if so, bear with me, I'll do my best to swap some knowldege with you.

You think CPVC is a bad choice of material and that you saved $100k by not finishing the softener install due to the CPVC cement cure time that you didn't want to invest. But now you are going back to install the softener anyway and are going to quadruple the cure time as the 'fix'.

Are you going to shut the by-pass during that cure time? Either way, are you aware of what to say to answer probable water odor complaints from your customer? Or what to do to fix the problem?

With all these worries about plastic plumbing... a few questions. What is your softener distributor tube made of (specifically)? How about the resin tank? The control valve? How about the brine line? Is there full line pressure on the brine line in the service position? Either way, does it connect with plastic compression fittings?

If you can't answer those questions, or if you get any of those answers wrong, you may want to stop selling and installing water treatment equipment such as softeners.

Here's why I say that. Right next to your stated inferior plastic plumbing you are installing a softener that is probably made up of a plastic control valve and a plastic tank with a plastic distributor tube and basket.... You are aware the valve, meter and DT etc. only uses o-rings for their seal connections right? Granted there is no CPVC but, there is ABS and polyethylene, maybe polystyrene and there's always fiberglass.

BTW, how far tubing feet wise are you installing this softener from that water heater?

How do you limit your liability with your probably plastic drain line? You don't use copper do you! And how do you attach it to wherever you run it? What is the pressure rating on any plastic drain line you use? No water damage possibilities there right? But you only worry about the plumbing connection.


Gary
Quality Water Associates

A number of times we assume that something has been inspected and find a number of jobs never get inspected or have a final inspection. You would not beleve the number of homes that are occupied prior to obtaining a Certifiecate of Occupancy, or the inspector is inept when looking at the water heater, both reasons are more widespread then everyone would ever think.

Plastic components are found in numerous applications of plumbing systems.


Those that have a history of failing and costing the customer money and stretching my liability out even farther is where my beef is.


Plastic+WaterPressure+Temperature=Problems over time.



Nothing else.......not drain lines not the water softener itself......nothing..........
plastic water lines and pressure.


I have good knowledge at these points of liability and I was looking for the recognition of the smart move I made with not hooking up that with that type of pressure and thermal temperature potentially causing the joint to explode.



Now why you totally steered away from that I don't know......But as the owner of my business, and knowing what I touch in a customer's home, I legally am responsible for it at that point. And I will continue to bring this insurance to each and every customer I do work for.




You cannot compare plastics to any drain line because pressure is not involved. Plastic bags with food has no principle in this forum because it stretches to another topic totally.


When I mention water piping,,,,,,,,No references implied to storage tanks, plastic internal components,,,,plastic drain lines. Water piping and pressure.



I want the insurance it will last for my customers. Maybe I just care more than others. I sleep really good at night though!


Now tell me..........why is it that I shouldn't be installing softeners like I have been for over 15 years because I don't feel comfortable, along with the feelings of my customers, about plastic piping. I look for good sound advice in here too ya know?

I do appreciate constructive criticism, but making harsh draw comparisons to everything but the dog's plastic food bowl will never convince millions of people what they are concerned about and why. All the knowledge is there to be learned and traded for those to make thier own good decision.


Not every discussion is an argument. It should be a sort of understanding of what each and every customer, or DIY should have the opportunity to learn.



Post Edited

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Everything in Plumbing can be repaired or replaced.



Edited 1 times.

Dunbar, you did the right thing. You didn t do something that you were not comfortable with under the time constraints. LISTEN TO YOUR GUT. You can now go back with time on your side and do the job your way and feel good about the repair. Too many repairmen these days throw caution into the wind just to collect the check.

YOU swear!

psssst I would have applauded your decision to walk had you not said you were going back.

Facts are:

Two hours to install. Two hours cure time. You could have cut the line and glued the union and let it cure while you did the rest of the plumbing, had a cup of coffee, and did your paperwork.

Water softeners have temperature and pressure ratings (which you seem to not realize your liability there). And they are very similiar to the rating for CPVC; which is 100 psi @73f IIRC. Please, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

A blocked (for whatever reason) water softener drain line ceratinly does have full line pressure on it during all cycles where water goes to drain. And that applies to all softeners. They and the brine line are FLOW controlled, not PRESSURE controlled. The most common brine and drain line material, PE tubing, has a 70 to 100 psi pressure rating (somebody correct me if I'm wrong there too).

Liability comes with all the work and materials you use. And pros get no repreive because they don't know this'nthat when they are supposed to.

P.S. You have more liability if you didn't protect the softener from the heat of hot water migration to the softener during regeneration. The limit is not less than 10 tubing feet.

All I'm asking is that you Trust but Verify.

Gary
Quality Water Associates



Edited 1 times.

Deeds rather then words will set the plumbings materials apart.

Now I know your not a plumber. You didn't mention what to use within 10 feet of a water heater; check valve. It's nice that you threw that in to discredit my knowledge though. Not this time.


You have to understand one thing about plumbers, we are mechanics and work with products every day. We don't sit around reading out of books and testing hypothesis's and pulling info from search engines. We live, eat, and breath our profession. Not just talk about it.


So overcomplicating information just doesn't make a valid point if no one can understand it but you.

Sorry to see that you think I'm out to discredit you, that's not my intent. I simply thought you were afraid of the wrong thing and thought I'd mention something you should worry about if you weren't aware of it. You mentioned a dielectric at the heater but not a check valve.

It's been awhile but IIRC I've said I'm not a plumber. You didn't think my company name says Plumber did you?

I sell and service water treatment equipment, well pumps and pressure tanks and clean/sanitize wells. I do all the related plumbing for those jobs. I'm a one guy and wife shop. I've been doing most of the above for 15 years.

I think I'm fairly knowledgeable about what I do but I'm certainly not right about everything and when I'm told I'm wrong or someone disagrees with me, I see it as an opportunity to learn something. You might want to try that.

And I share that knowledge with anyone that asks for help or wants information; in some cases even those that don't seem to want to hear what I have to say. I've been doing so for 6+ years in usenet newsgroups and on web site bulletin boards. And I don't sit around any more than I think you do, but if I do, so what? I'm 60 and still do 24 hr emergency work (and I don't charge hourly rates or overtime) and I'm planning to be sitting around more and more. So buckle up! But hey, you have more posts here than I do and some of them are as long or longer than mine.

Gary
Quality Water Associates

You install softners and have done so for many years. I assume you make your own water and drain connections as most installers do? If in fact you do make these connections, this is an alteration to the plumbing system and where we are, this requires a plumbing license. Not only to make the water connection, but also the drain connection, or should I say the air gap that is required for back flow prevention. Our laws will allow an installer to connect to existing openings only, not provide their own. PLUMBERS deal with various sitituations and conditions every day. We all have our own choice of materials depending on what part of the countery we live in. I have the benifit of living somewhere that copper and CPVC is widely used and accepted. Unlike CAlif. where their choice is nothing but plastic due to the condidtons of the water . You should be able to relate to that since you are in the treatment business. Before you critize, try waking in a plumbers shoes.

These are definetely the two subjects that start the biggest fires:

- which materials to use
- water quality issues

Yes, I'm not a licensed plumber and I do the installations and that's perfectly legal here as it should be anywhere IMO. Water treatment dealers/installers don't have an exclusive lock on stupidity. Both plumbers and dealers/installers share that area as I'm sure you know. We could both tell lotsa stories I'm sure.

The air gap is not for backflow prevention, it is to prevent the cross connection of potable and sewer waters.

The choice of potable water materials should be based solely on water quality issues. Plumbers are supposed to be invloved with plumbing related health issues right? Or should the materials be simply personal preferrence? I see a lot of personal preferrence and bias for copper here and little said by plumbers that has to do with the water quality or customers' overall benefits derived from the choice of materials. Why is that?

State wide California only last year or the year before approved CPVC. I have the benefit of living where we don't have limits of only copper and CPVC. I see that as progressive thinking (actually it's politics) rather than any type of handicap, and that's looking from all sides of this issue; the customer, the installer/plumber and the water quality.

BTW, I pay liability and other 'plumbing' type insurance premiums too. I also worry about leaks and water damage, fire from my installs or the equipment I sell and install etc.. So I'm not someone not knowledgeable about this stuff and believe it, my premiums are somewhat based on the pinhole and other leaks with copper.

I don't agree that I have been critical.

Gary
Quality Water Associates

Gary, water quality issues are not the only consideration. Fire and plastic melting is a big one. I prefer copper, but use cpvc when the homeowner wants it. I have also used pex on 2 occasions, and it worked out fine. Copper has a 70 year track record, when the plastics can say that, I'll be long out of plumbing.

I don't see the use of copper or should we say galvanized too and it surviving a fire as important when the house burned but... then shouldn't we say that when plastic melts it leaks and that water could help minimize the fire damage? And what about the fire risk in installing the copper; there is no such risk with plastics.

And if sewer lines and potable water lines should (only) be done by 'licensed' plumbers due to health concerns, then the water quality after running through the pipe should be the primary concern. All I'm asking is that water quality is taken into account rather than suggesting copper be damned.

Gary
Quality Water Associates

The issue of CPVC and copper is a strongly debated topic. Most codes allow the use of either. Dunbar was faced with an insallation that the manufactur called for a two hour cure time on their product. As well as the plastic connected directly to the water heater, which is not approved by any manufacture that I know of. I think if you do some checking you will find that all of the products in this discussion are to be installed per the manufacture. I think that you will find that anywhere there is a plumbing license law you have to be licensed to install water and drain lines, that is plumbing. With regaurds to backflow prevention, you will find that the brine discharge is a continuation of the water line and it is required to be installed with an air gap at the drain connection. If an installer maks a choice to not follow the manufactures installation instructions then he sets himself up for a libility. Dunbar didn t refuse to do the job he simply went back with time on his side. That in its self is the issue. Had the piping been copper the installation would have been done at the time and not had to wait for the cement to dry or run the risk of a joint failing after the PLUMBER was gone.

Metal pipe is important for fire protection/suppression systems. Plastic pipe melting and water dumping at the inner perimeter of the building doesn't help. Sprinkler systems are designed to provide saturation coverage.

# 1 cpvc piping should not be with in 18 from hot water heater. due to the heat
# 2 YOU ARE NOT PROVIDING CUSTOMER WITH IMFORMATION ON THE HIGH WATER PRESSURE MOST APLIANCES WILL FAIL WITH THAT MUCH WATER PRESSURE . NEEDS PRESSURE REDUCING VALVE . # 3 IF YOU ARE GETTING PRESSURE BUILD UP WHILE HOT WATER HEATER IS RUNNING THERE ARE CHECK VALVES IN THE SYSTEM NOT LETTING THE PRESSURE TO ESCAPE . A EXPANTION TANK IS NEEDED . IF NOT T& P VALVE ON HEATER WILL LEAK EVERY TIME PRESSURE BUILDS . AND I HAVE RAN A LOT OF CPVC NEED CPVC GLUE I HAVE PRESSUREIZED LINES 5 MINUTES AFTER GLUING NEVER HAD ONE BLOW APART.AFTER 5 MINS YOU CANT EVEN PULL THEM APART

You have to keep buying glue "specifically for that type of pipe"? Ever heard of all purpose?

Oh and 110 degrees refers to the ambient temp, not the temp of the water..

Well, a fine rant, but it really just smacks of the notion that CPVC is a threat to plumbers. Simple as that.

I'm a homeowner and I built my own house. I used CPVC for the whole thing - total cost was minimal - I don't have the exact number, but less than a few grand - two full baths, one half, laundry, kitchen.

How much did I save? 5 grand? 10 grand? I didn't price out a plumber because I knew it would be relatively straight forward. What's the worst that can happen? A water leak?

Electrical guy wanted 900 bucks to connect meter box to panel 1 foot away, on the other side of concrete. Forget that. Spent 6 hours researching, did it for 325 bucks and about 6 hours. Figure I paid myself about 80 bucks an hour. Inspector said it was as good a job as he's ever seen.

CPVC allows anybody to do plumbing, and that's the concern.

Copper? It's crap. It's off-the-charts expensive, it starts corroding the second you put it in, and pin hole leaks are extremely common because there is so much variability in installation. I lived in a house in CT that was on a cul-de-sac with 20 other houses. Half of the houses had bad plumbing leaks between 15 and 25 years after install. In the copper. The rest are just time bombs, waiting for that pinhole leak.

Yeah yeah, copper gives the illusion of strength, but the flux is caustic and causes leaks. 1/2 the homes in the neighborhood have repaired drywall ceilings because of these leaks. Maybe a novice "pro" plumber? Maybe a plumber in a hurry? Short on flux? Bad pipe prep?

CPVC? Any @#$%& who has glued paper in grade school can glue them together.

Leaks? I put together the entire system, first time ever, and I had zero leaks. Over the years, I've had leaks with copper - problems with pressure, steam, and so on. I also have a nice scar on my hand from where a single solder drip got me. Actually a cool burn - full thickness, no pain, but the deepest scab I ever had.

Re: Water heater - I have two flow-preventer risers and the CPVC is hooked to that.

Livespan of CPVC - 25,000 years. Find me a CPVC install that failed after 20 years.

Copper - Super expensive, prone to failure.
CPVC - Super cheap, indefinite lifespan.

It was an easy choice to me. I sleep very soundly.

Regarding 2 hour cure time - I've made many mods to the system (basement sink and so on), and the 2 hour cure time has never been an issue. 100PSI? Why would you do that? If a client has a system without a PRV and an expansion tank, you should say - "add the tank or I can't guarantee your system." Simple as that.

Find a younger plumber who has been installing CPVC for 10 years or more. Ask him how many "pinhole" copper-type leaks he's had callbacks on - I'll bet zero.

CPVC/Pex - the plumbing of the future. Copper - for oldtimers only.

nowhere did I see mentioned (unless I missed it) the consideration to use cpvc (or pex) over copper due to rampant copper theft in places where the home sits empty for extended periods before sale. Many the repipe job I've done where the copper was ripped out and I for sure went back with cpvc so that my work wouldn't get stolen before I finished and got paid!

My experiance with CPVC was a simple supply line to a laundry in my basement. To save money I went with PVC and CPVC for the cold and hot respectively. I noticed that the cpvc had special adapters to transition from plastic to galv that seemed over priced and I wondered why not do it all in pvc (i was told cpvc for hot was for health reason but nobody drinks from the washing machine, the nitro phosphates got to be worse then the poly vinyl crap) anyway, I followed the proper rules, glued it all up...I may have skipped the primer because I'm skeptical about it usefulness. I gave it a good hour before powering up, (Hey I had a ton of laundry to do and already lost half a day looking for my tools) Several hours later I'm in search of the source of this strange sound which leads me to to my subterranial bat cave and I find, to my horror a 3/4" pipe gushing costly hot water like yellowstones old faithful. I spent the rest of my weekend putting back in place the crustfilled iron pipes that I had just removed. I'm back to a washer that I can select water temps of cold, not quite as cold, and hot 1/2hour fill cycle but I'm tramatized by the fear that a cpvc joint will fail while I'm away for the weekend and in addition to damage it would easily cost me $200 added to my water bill. Can they be trusted? Is there not systems that can detect an open source condition and automatically shut of the supply? Or maybe one could follow the manufacturers instructions to the letter, then sue them if it still fails.