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Author:
coopowner (NY)
Hello, All. I'm hoping experts here might help me with an issue in our co-op building in NY.
I am an owner and a board member in a seven-story apartment building in Queens NY. It was built in the mid-60s. We have a rule against installing dishwashers. I joined the board several years after this rule was adopted, and cannot pinpoint its origin. When asking current board members about it, I get different vague answers about problems from noise to leaks to backed-up sinks in neighboring apartments - never anything specific, never the same answer twice, and never any kind of opinion issued by a qualified plumbing professional.
As new, younger owners start to move in, there is increasing questioning of this rule. Other board members, all relatively older and entrenched, don't seem to feel any need to re-examine or explain it. I, however, would like to either...
a) have a solid explanation for new owners about why dishwashers really are just not possible, or
b) determine that they would not be a problem if properly sourced and installed (and on that basis, change the rule, putting in those conditions necessary to make it work).
I am open to either answer, but I feel the need to be able to give owners something more than, "Because the board said so" as the answer to their questions about why.
Can anyone help me with a way to tackle this issue?
Thanks.
Edited 1 times.
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Author:
hj (AZ)
IF there is going to be a problem, it will usually be with the lowest level sink backing up due to a "suds zone" problem because of the way that sink is connected to the piping.
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Author:
packy (MA)
if there would be a 'suds-zone' backup, it will occur whether the is a idshwasher or not..
as for dishwashers in kitchens, the are millions and millions of them installed across the fruited plain with no problems, why would yours be different ?
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Author:
stuckinlodi (MO)
just a guess,
since they likely adopted the "no dishwasher" rule for a good reason back then it may be related to noise. Apartment neighbors live a lot closer to each other than homeowners do. Dishwashers can cause water hammer noise when the electric water valve shuts quickly. This valve is on the bottom of the dishwasher, right above the floor, so any apartment underneath will hear it. And the dishwasher itself makes noise as it is running. People tend to run the dishwasher in the late evening or at night, when other apt dwellers may be trying to sleep or watch tv or a movie.
Also, if your building uses a central source for hot water that every apartment shares if everyone adds a dishwasher that will consume a lot of additional hot water at about the same time of the evening, might cause problems with baths and shower time.
These are just guesses, but they more than likely had a good reason for the rule. So even though we don't know what that reason is it doesn't necessarily mean it is bogus. Maybe talk to past board members or old timers that may remember the original reason. If it is no longer valid you might get the rule changed. They should have written in the rules/by-laws what the reason for this and any other rule like this, that would make it clear to everyone.
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Author:
sum (FL)
Are there cloth washers in the apartments? If so have they caused any problems? Or are the washers & dryers ok n a central location where everyone goes?
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Author:
sum (FL)
Is it possible back in the 60s dishes were done by hand by house wives so the wives saw dishwashers as a threat to their job security so they passed the no dishwasher in the bylaws?
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Author:
PlumberLoren (CA)
Dishwashers can accumulate small pieces of food that have difficulty navigating through the Air Gap and that can cause build up in the line between the Air Gap and the Disposal. These areas need maintenance from time to time. Also the waste water from the Dishwasher can drain down back into the Dishwasher from the Air Gap causing bacteria to grow inside the washing machine if not rinsed thoroughly until the water from the dishwasher is clean. Again it is important to keep the line between the Garbage disposal and the Air Gap clean for sanitary reasons. Hope this helps you to understand the drain process of the DW and GD.
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Author:
stuckinlodi (MO)
Lots and lots of dishwasher installations do not have the air gap. It is a relatively recent thing and not all places require it even today.
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Author:
coopowner (NY)
Thanks, everyone, for your replies.
I've already talked to the "old timers." When I ask them about the origin of the rule, I get different vague answers, and never the same one twice. This is one reason I'm suspicious that there might not be much behind the rule - or at least not much that would stand up to newer dishwasher models. There does seem to be a general "Just Say No" approach on the board.
This is the reason I have come to this forum, and will seek other professional, disinterested opinions.
If I were to hire a plumber to come and do an evaluation, what would I ask the person to look at, and what would the conditions of our system have to be in order to support dishwashers?
Thanks again!
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Author:
packy (MA)
an available drain and a hot water supply pipe are the plumbing necessities.
a seperate wire may need to be run to the circuit panel as well.
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Author:
jblanche (WI)
When the building was engineered, the plumbing was probably sized based on Drain Fixture Units (and Supply Fixture Units) not including dishwashers.
Personally, based on my experience in property management, dishwashers and clothes washers exacerbate existing problems, whether in plumbing system design or waste and scale buildup in sewer pipes. I've also seen things like washer discharge hoses in bathtubs bust loose, pumping water onto the floor.
As a coop board member, I would be concerned that if dishwashers were allowed:
1. Hot water might be scarce at times (highly dependent on system design),since dishwashers are not necessarily low-flow appliances.
2. The board might be on the hook for plumbing repairs where downstream conditions prevent use of a dishwasher upstream. For example, I live in 701. My neighbor in 703 has had a dishwasher for years and loves it. I buy a dishwasher. But whenever I run it, the tub backs up in 101. A plumbing engineer has determined that fixing the problem will cost $10,000 just for the x01 stack. Is it reasonable for the board to say I now cannot have a dishwasher, and if I can't, what do I now do with my dishwasher?
3. Malfunctions might mean more messes.
How's water pressure? Does the building have constant pressure pumps? Do you know the general sizes and venting arrangements of the stacks & horizontal piping?
Just some things to think about before you dive in.
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Links to the State of Wisconsin Plumbing Code:
[docs.legis.wisconsin.gov]
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I am not a plumber.
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Author:
stuckinlodi (MO)
So what happens if someone living in one of the building's apartments buys a portable dishwasher? It isn't an "installation", they can store it anywhere out of sight until needed. Easily connects to the kitchen sink faucet and plugs into an ordinary wall outlet. There may be some already in the building.
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