Continuing with one of my current project last night and found another surprise.

I was trying to add a new 1/2" soft copper pipe to an existing manifold, so I disassembled the top portion of it intending to reconfigure the pipes a little bit. I noticed the two existing pipes coming up to this manifold had some debris that went inside the black pipe sleeves, sand, bits of concrete and whatever. So I removed their pipe sleeves with the intent to slide new, longer sleeves over them.

I found one of the pipes have a kinked deformation at the exact spot it meets the top of the concrete slab.

This picture shows the three hot water pipes that will form the new manifold. The pipe to the right side is the one with the kink.



The kinked portion faces the other side of the wall. I am able to get a better picture of what that looks like.









As you can see, it's not just slightly flattened, it has a big dimple on it.

Now, the pipe does look original from 1955, with a lot of concrete or sand coating the outside, so it may have been this way since 1955. I don't know.

I touched the spot on all sides, above and below, and I think it is out of round at least 2 inches above and below that spot.

Should I:

(A) Pretend I didn't see it, put a sleeve over it and move on.

( Cut it off where it is round and put in a soldered joint below grade.

(C) Try and bend & row the line below that spot a bit more to try and get that pipe to raise a few inches so that the trouble spot is above grade, then put in a coupling. The problem with that is I don't know how much wiggle room I have with these old pipes I may end up creating another kink by messing with it further.

(D) Try to do something to get it back to a rounded shape.

Any other options?

Any suggestions on what I should do about this?

well, if the pipes are from the 50's then realistically how much life can they have left?
i would just cut and put a coupling. the silver bearing solder we use today is not only lead free but it is somewhat stronger than the old 50/50..

I got about 12" of pipe exposed in the hole then it curves up.

The kink is at the end of the curve.

I think any cut in the middle of the curve will be questionable whether it is truly round or not and whether it is too curved to put a coupling on.

The lower horizontal section is completely coated with concrete or some sort of cement "scaling" that won't come off even if I scale it with a sharp putty knife. I hesitate to force anything on it.

Is there a tool that makes a mutilated pipe round again?

Yes, it is called a 2 piece "resizing tool". One piece goes INTO the tubing to round it out, then the other piece goes over the outside to return it to the original size and roundness.

I looked at some if them seems you will need to hammer this thing into the tubing and with this kink at the end of a curve bent its not going to happen.

Just out of curiosity, I know Sioux chief carries a 12" long repair coupling that you can cut to whatever length to fit. Is there such a thing which is a long soft mallable copper repair coupling to slide over existing 1/2" copper tubing?

I did manage to remove the cement "skin" on a horizontal section of this pipe before it curves up. Took a wire brush on a drill then a lot of manual sandpaper polishing to expose a 3" long section that is round and shiny. Took about am hour of sanding. It will probably accept a coupling there. The pipe has some sort of adhesive that looks like harden chewing gum with a coat of cement around it. Never seen cement clinging onto pipes this bad before.

you sure do A LOT of plumbing for someone who claims they are not a plumber.
have you thought about getting a journeyman's license? Is your work permitted?

very nice you are so detailed with photos and plans to get it done right and I
certainly become a better plumber by yours and others' projects. thanks for sharing.

PEX to the rescue. Time to solder on 1/2" over the pipe x PEX adapters and
run PEX piping to the fixtures. Got to find a section of copper that is not crimped
and perhaps a resizing tool will help get it back to round.

If he were to become a plumber, he would go broke, because no one could afford to pay him for the amount of time his jobs take. we cannot spend hours pondering all the variables, so we come in, do the work, and get out.



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If your water quality is poor you may want to consider re-piping the home in PEX. After 25 years some systems have thin wall thidkness and or pin holes develop. I would re-pipe.

LOL I have a day job this is just stuff I have to do for investment properties and my own home so yes I tend to stretch out a project that would take you guys only a few hours but takes me 10 days because I may only have say 1 hour on my way back from work to make a stop in the evenings, and more time on weekends. I may have six projects going on at the same time some plumbing some electrical some framing and woodwork even landscape. I do them in "bite sizes" because as hj said once I bump into something I tend to stop to think and get advice. All this plumbing under this wall have been going on for weeks and it's a big mess. At the same time I have been hung over a dozen interior doors and two exterior doors, crawled all over the attic to repair trusses damaged from roof leaks while the attic temperature is bearable before it gets crazy hot in March/April, laid sod in 2000SF of backyard, framing in a closet, and even a bigger project in the back dock to repair a cracked and crumbling seawall.

true. if you are being paid you can't work like I do to do multiple projects at the same properties all at the same time but stretch them out and move forward in bits and pieces of work. You guys are working under pressure, a deadline and a contract. I don't have that pressure when renovating a vacant property.

I guess my water quality is good. I have made several cuts of the pipes with a tubing cutter. I then deburred the end to get rid of the "flare". The old pipe from 1955 is still as thick as a new type L pipe today. As a matter of fact I have demolished various old supply copper pipes from the 50s, 60s, 70s in various places in South Florida and have never seen any pin holes or thinned walls. Copper drain pipes yes I have seen a few rotted at the bottom especially kitchen I suspect those are due to harsh chemicals put down these pipes.

sum,

practice / learn silver-soldering/'brazing'

a brazed joint using a coupling is just fine for 'burial' as it will have 90,000# 'tensile strength'

use 15% silver 'wire', NOT the cheaper BCuP type

==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

The "joint" will have a high tensile strenght, but the process of heating the pipe and fitting 'red hot' destroys its temper and leaves it susceptible to bending. I have seen small branches from tees break off after brazing.

bernabeu, I had a similar situation before at another property.

I hired a refrigeration plumber to make one single brazed joint under a slab at a property. I think I paid him $250 for one single joint, probably 6-7 years ago. After the joint was made the entire copper within six inches were turned black. I put a small clamp with rubber feet on the black copper pipe and applied a little bit of pressure and it seemed real soft. Much softer than the original soft copper pipe.

Should I try to repair this with as a flared joint?

Did some reading and saw a bunch of references on flared joints being preferred over soldered, brazed or compression.

Only thing is I also saw some articles that said flared joints are designed for type K copper tubing and is not as ideal for L or M.

I am wondering if I should try it here. For this joint I do have access from above and not an overhanging almost out of reach situation like the other two. I have never done one but looks fairly straight forward.

to get a good flare joint you need to have soft copper which you have.
use a piece of scrap and make a couple of test flares.
when the clamp part of the tool is tightened around the tubing, there should be about the thickness of a dime showing.
when you make the real flare, don't forget to put the nut on the tubing FIRST...
lastly, a touch of grease between the taper of the tubing and the taper of the nut helps

sum,


[www.youtube.com]


yes, you can, with a little practice

==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

Looking at getting a flaring clamp tool and a bit confused by their sizing.

I assume since flaring is more typical in HVAC the sizes on the tool are referring to the actual OD of the tubing?

In other words, if I want to do a flared connection with nominal 1/2" type L soft copper water supply tubing, I will use the 5/8" size on the flaring clamp. Using the same logic, if the largest size on the flaring clamp is listed as 3/4", it means I will not be able to use it to make connections for 3/4" water supply pipes?

So if I want a tool to be able to handle 1/2" and 3/4" sizes, I need a clamp that lists 5/8" and 7/8"?

Or is this manufacturer/brand dependent?

One more thing, is there a big difference in reliability and usability of a $30 Brasscraft flaring tool versus a $285 Ridgid flaring tool?



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As far as the actual flared fitting to join two 1/2" soft copper tubing, I need a 5/8"X5/8" union. Like this one?



and the actual nuts are sold separately? Is that correct? Why would the nuts not be part of the assembly sold together? Or is it because it may be connected other ways without the need of a nut?

1/2 nominal Cu would be 5/8 OD for flare or compression


often the nuts ARE separate items because the nuts are 'captive' on the tube

often the nuts are included


for your intermittent use the $30 tool is fine

==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

Why do they called the flare nut a "short nut"? Is there a long nut?

One more, do you put dope or grease on the male threads of a flared fitting?



Edited 1 times.

yes, there are different nuts - but - they attach the same - depends on whether you need a 'bend' close to the fitting


you lubricate the 'straight mechanical' threads and the 'back' of the flared tube itself to allow easy and tight make-up

you do NOT dope the mating surfaces

[www.bing.com]

[www.bing.com]

==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638