I had loose tiles on a wood floor. The floor was raised by a 1/4 inch backing board and retiled by a general contractor.

When the contractor first reset the toilet there was some rot on the right, and it took him two tries (with new thick wax) to get it to hold and not leak at the base and not rock.

At first it still held, but a year later, I cut a hole in the ceiling below (unrelated reason), poured a huge bucket of water into the toilet to try to clear it (bad idea), and it's leaked ever since -occasionally- briefly right after I flush. The leak is from the waste removal pipe into the room below and not at the toilet's base.

I'm getting very varied responses from plumbers I want to hire.

So --- can using a spacer work????

Am I stepping into a poor short cut if I hire the ones who want to use this? Two plumbers tell me spacers can be sealed with silicone and made sturdy enough for no rocking. (And will switch to flange raising if need be.)

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

Almost all the other plumbers tell me it's iffy. Spacers can work a while, a few months, or 3-5 years, but it's usually not permanent. Instead, they want to raise the flange for considerably more expense (5.5hours). A bunch of posts here talk about using spacers but a few say it's a weak solution.

Raising the flange is obviously the better solution, but is it necessary to pay the extra money???

Pictures are at: [postimg.org] Once at the link, click on them to enlarge

Thanks for any clues!



Edited 3 times.

The flange needs to be fully supported and screwed in multiple places to the framing/subloor. Your picture looks like the flange is not fully supported or screwed down properly. I'm not a fan of spacers and would remove the flange, provide support and install a new flange at the proper height. I seal the base of toilets, to the finished floor, with caulking, that also provides stability on uneven tile flooring.

Yes, in that situation while the ceiling is opened up, I'd remove the flange, block the floor and sit the flange at the correct height.

the pipe is in good shape. i would not hesitate to use a spacer.
properly done it will last a lifetime..
especially if you are only talking about 1/4 inch..
nice layer of wax between the flange and the spacer..
5/16 solid brass bolts.
extra washers and brass nuts to keep the sandwich from seperating.
stainless screws to hold everything to the floor with some blocking below.
shim the bowl and put 100% silicone under the rim to stabilize it.
NOW, you could drive an F450 into the bathroom and that toilet won't move..

the principle:



the flange needs to sit ON TOP the finished floor and be bolted/secured THROUGH it to the subfloor

the toilet needs to sit on a SOLID floor

==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

Not a plumber but the fundamental issue seems to be your subfloor is not properly supported or framed. That's why your tiles are coming loose and the toilet/flange connection is intermittently leaky.

Its hard to tell from the picture of the waste pipe from below. You have some plywood notched and on top of that 1/4" backer board then thinset and tiles? I would try to find a way to frame/brace from below to make the footprint area of the toilet on solid ground. After that raised flange or spacer wouldn't be that critical.

That's an offset flange so spacers will not work on it- at least I don't think they will; never tried it.

Wow, thanks for all the answers.

I conclude --- that spacers are controversial! A minority of plumbers have used them with long term success. Many have not, so go straight to raising flange.

For the various answers, it'd be great to know how long you'd expect it to take? (Or price, but hours are more universal.) And are there things in these photos that make this a more difficult and TIME CONSUMING job than a regular flange raising??

From many plumbers for flange raising, I got such varied answers. Retired plumber at parts store said 1 1/2 hour, then when I said &&&&&&& min, he said that'd be a good price (max price). Other front offices said 1 1/2. But when I pushed to talk with the plumber instead of front desk, or sent the photos, the prices went to &&&&&&& for 2-3 hours plus parts. Odd thing was those prices matched a couple companies, I KNOW were taking advantage of me (from my instinct and retired plumber's knowing them.)

So a sense of hours off these photos would help a lot, along with whether this is a harder than usual job.

---
---

I've narrowed down to two plumbers. One with good online reviews and retired plumber says he's okay. Other is referral from bath & home store who hands his name out all the time without complaint. NEITHER has seen the photos.

Any opinions on anything about them, and their approaches?

- Mr. #1)
Will use spacers, with silicone and will get it rock solid. Cost is hourly rate for around 45 mins - hour (&&&&&&& Unless he opens and finds it's not possible, and will raise flange at hourly rate (no idea how high that goes). But feels confident he will wind up using spacers. (To me this implies he's done spacers before with success.)

- Mr. #2)
Thinks it's possible general contractor didn't put the toilet in quite centered or something so that the wax didn't do it's job, and possibly it will be a simple re-set (cost not given). However, it's very possible needs flange raised, quickly gave fixed price of &&&&&&&. He "tries not to use spacers except rarely when he has to."

Thanks so much!



Edited 2 times.

Steve, North Carolina Plumber
-----------------------------

Thanks for the details on how to do the flange raise!!! I assume support is as straightforward as bolting some wood from underneath.

Any idea how much time it'd take to do the job?

Nice to know it's a straight forward and known type of problem.

Anything at risk to make it more complicated than expected?


Packy
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That's cool. Sounds like you've had success with spacers. Your post reflects the confidence that #1 plumber expresses. I'll print off your list, just to have it handy. I'm sure I can trust both of these, but nice to mention options too.


M&M
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No one's mentioned that it may be an offset flange. Not sure how to spot that? But that would surely make a difference in which way I can even consider, if spacer wouldn't work.


Sum
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That's an interesting idea. The tiles came off because after 20 years on a wood fllor that they shouldn't have been installed onto, they started to come off. I think everything is stable enough because it has been such a long time. On flooring, yah, sounds like everyone is suggesting some support underneath to get this on a good flooring though you've said it distinctly. Yes, plywood notched and on top of that 1/4" backer board (was added with the re-tiling) then thinset and tiles?


bernabeu
------------

Not sure how you make that happen in this case?. Or which plumber would be a better choice for that? But it does need to be supported, so I'm glad to have the underside open already to make it easier to see and work with.



Edited 3 times.

you "rip 'er out" and redo the entire job properly

subfloors need carpentry

piping needs plumbing

proper way to install a toilet:

pipe is 'stubbed' too long through hole in sub floor or subfloor is installed over same too long pipe (capped of course)

finished flooring is installed over subfloor

THEN pipe is 'trimmed' and flange installed ON TOP OF FLOORING

YOU need to figure out how to 'retro accomplish' a proper installation

or

continue to live with the butchery



==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638



Edited 1 times.

Did I do something wrong, that I'm not getting any more replies?

Hi bernabeu -

Thank you!! I need a good enough job to last. Not as worried about perfect. It's a low end townhouse. So butchered is okay, as long as it's not going to leak or fall through to the floor below, even if it is ugly . The toilet is currently very solid (no rocking). The leak is very small, and short duration, so I'm not sure it's in need of much to clear that up. So it'd be an additional question of how lacking the flooring is and how much it's risky falling through. The floor was solid originally, but a little rot on the right, which seems to be showing up with a gap. I'll have to see what the plumber (whichever makes sense to go with), decides it needs very a visual inspection. Do you have an opinion between the two plumbers on what sounds better? What hours are you thinking the job would take?

Knowing how long things are likely to take -- would help SO much. It gives an indication of who's being realistic to the problem.

not having actually seen the job,

#2 sounds good

min charge to 2.5 hours work

need to be there for additional quote

have it done 'right' and be done with it

ps. any 'rot' of existing flooring is caused by intermittent invisible leak

the leak is SEWAGE

==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

bernabeu -
That's good to hear. After sitting with it, I leaned toward #2. It's a max price for a proper job rather than raising the flange becoming a per hour job. There's that worry that he'll come see, and suddenly announce a &&&&&&& job and I'll be wondering what to do.

There's that #1 is saying he'll be able to do something that's inherently cheaper. One hates to miss out on a reasonable deal -- but real life experience, if he can't do it that way -- (and the actuals of the situation seem to indicate some concern for most plumbers via the photos) --- it becomes hourly and that can really climb fast. He said around &&&&&&& for raising it. Chances of his coming in at what he's thinking? Usually that's not accurate. (Including when I fix things, it usually takes longer than I estimated even when I've done the job before.)

Maybe the other guy is overpricing it. But a fixed cap, is at least something. He also was easier going sounding. The #1's bristle worried me a little, like he's used to getting defensive.

Sorry I kind of rambled . Thanks for the feedback -- it definitely helps. At least I know to you &&&&&&& for the job having seen the photos, 2.5 hours, sounds reasonable.



Edited 1 times.

2.5 hrs MAXIMUM time to raise, my 'guess' 1.25 actual working time

cut horizontal run (where convenient)

coupling

repipe

plastic is no sweat - pun intended

+ carpentry

==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

He said &&&&&&& fixed price. So I have to hope he'll adjust for more reasonable total when he's here on Wed. Maybe the other guy is more in line. Guess I'll have to see, since I already canceled the other guy for now. I've been told a few times that the job is 1 1/2 hours, so &&&&&&& is max and high as a starting point. Hum.

What's cutting a horizontal line?

I think I can figure out the rest - cutting pipe, carpentry, and plastic being easy to join .



Edited 1 times.

"He said &&&&& fixed price. So I have to hope he'll adjust for more reasonable total when he's here on Wed."

A 'fixed' price is rigid; some use the word 'flat rate'. If he adjusts the total after the work is completed, then the price was not fixed, it was fluid. A fixed price is not influenced by the hours involved. It is presented to the buyer as a final price and billed as such at jobs' end. The contractor takes the risk in a fixed price and consequently is rewarded for performance below cost but stands the chance of losing money when job costs exceed the stated price. The alternative to fixed price is 'time and material' where the buyer assumes the risk.



Edited 1 times.

From your last post, neither plumber has seen the photos or had a chance to make an assessment. They are giving you a quote based on their past experience. It may be accurate or way off.

Typically here they will see the job before giving a price. Unless its time and materials. Or plumber #2 is giving you a worst case scenario price. If you accept it, don't expect the price to drop if he ends up getting it done much quicker. You agreed to the price. If it turns out to be a job from hell and taking 5 hours you wouldn't expect him to charge you extra either right?

I hired a company to put up a fence two weeks ago and it was a fixed price. When setting the posts they have to dig a 12" diameter 2' deep hole for each post. If its sandy soil they can move fast. If its lime rock and they have to break out the chipping hammer they may lose money. Sometimes you don't know how long and how easy until half way into the job.



Edited 1 times.

Sum and M&M -- how long do you think this job should take? Do you have a preference among the two choices?

..

The price of &&&&& was offered almost immediately on the phone. With more conversation, he offered that it may not require raising, and would give me a price when he saw the job. He hasn't seen the photos. This wasn't a through price, it was a price that covers himself all right as long as the job doesn't have significant unknown surprises. And we agreed that if he sees it and it's got significant surprises, he's not bound to offer that price. I did ask him is time price, but he doesn't work that way at all.

So maybe painted myself into a corner, but I do think he's up for talking price after he's looked and pulled the toilet. I'm also thinking that I'll call tomorrow to confirm and say something about knowing what it will take when he sees it. I don't like calls like that -- but might help give an opening that if he's thinking he gave a price and that's that, he'll say something and we'll have a chance to get on the same page.

No one wanted to come and give an estimate for free, and then schedule the job, since they consider it a small job. I prefer fixed price myself that costs a little more, but limits my upside risk, especially with someone I don't know.

Thanks for all the inputs!



Edited 2 times.

curls, I am not a plumber just a DIYer so I am not qualified to tell you how long a job like this will take.

You have tiles that came loose, you have what seem like rotted plywood from below, you have some sort of an AC duct and another PVC pile in the way, and it's not clear how far the next truss over is to be able to put some kind of a brace to support the flange. All of this could complicate the job. If I were in your shoes I would hire the one you trust more from your conversation with him.

Sum -
"the one you trust more" because of possible complications. That makes sense and is good advice. You hit on something that was bugging me that I hadn't put into words.

I don't think there's really much in the way of complications. Most of floor isn't rotten just right there. Cross support beams are nearby. Ceiling is already open. But the job is already complicated even if those things aren't a problem. Such as the pipe being a 90* fairly close to the flange.

Thanks!

No discussion of pricing allowed.

Plbg Staff



Edited 1 times.

Can work be discussed in terms of hours it will take? I used hours everywhere, and it would be possible to remove just the prices that go with the hours.

WHY did you remove my entire last question? You blocked out prices in various posts and that makes sense. But I've been waiting to see if there's a reply, and I look and my post was completely removed. It was about which one made more sense to go with quality, method --- not especially about prices. That's unsettling.


.
.
When I have more time, I'll recreate it but...



Edited 1 times.