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Author:
beno (TX)
Hey guys,
Finally am redoing a bath in my house that had a shower leak in the past and a cracked tile floor. I'm to the point of putting the subfloor back in, but need advice about how best to tackle replacing the toilet flange. Here's what was there originally:
To reduce the depth of the notch in the joist for the vent pipe, I angled up some pvc. The notch is still way beyond code, but I've beefed up the joist, plus it's pretty near the foundation wall:
The lead was originally folded over the old flange and soldered, and maybe that could be done again. Haven't worked with lead pipe in this way before, but I'd guess you'd heat it with a propane torch enough to work it safely without cracking it. I've found a "two finger gasketed closet flange" sold by Jones Stevens that reduces from 4" (what I've got) to 3". Directions say this can be used with lead pipe if the pipe is in good condition. Mine will need some reshaping to get there. Does it make sense to heat this thing up a little in flattened areas and then carefully bend or tap them back into radius? If I can get the area above the vent rounded and smoothed out, then this 3" tall flange should go down to the finished tile floor height and seal the lead pipe without covering up the vent hole.
Another replacement flange that might work is the Oatey 43539. I called them and was told it's not rated for lead, but have read where people used it successfully with lead. This model has 3 set screws that expand the seal inside the pipe. Seems to me that I could put a couple of pipe clamps around the lead in the area where the seal expands, and safely crank out the screws. Common sense tells me that I should just leave the pipe clamps there, but it might look wrong to an inspector - don't know.
Also thought about converting the riser to pvc, and attaching the flange pvc to pvc, but, I talked to the Fernco people, and they said the only product they have for connecting to lead pipe is the flexible hub type, which is 4" tall. That's too tall to go either above the vent hole, or below it to where the lead comes out of a cast iron hub. They also said it's a no no to cut down the height of their rubber hub. So, that's not looking like an answer.
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I'd love to know if I'm headed in the right direction or not. I'd also like to know if I do wind up cracking the lead, is epoxy a long term repair, or is there something better?
Thanks much,
Ben
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Author:
North Carolina Plumber (NC)
I can't see the pictures. How much lead is there ? Is it possible to remove all the lead and start from the cast iron ?
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Author:
packy (MA)
see the bumpout in the lead pipe down low. that is a wiped lead joint. if you melt that away you will have a brass pipe stickinga good 1 1/2 inches above the cast iron. a fernco rubber coupling will slide over the brass to transition to PVC. then you can use a sanitary tee for the vent and above that use a pvc toilet flange.
if you want to leave what you have and just install a new flange then finish the floor first, set a new brass flange down and fasten it well and peen the lead over it. i would not solder something that old and fragile. you can melt some bowl wax so it seeps between the lead and the flange before setting the toilet.
the sponsor sells these..
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Author:
packy (MA)
north carolina.. right click on the red x.. then click on properties.. the url shows up so you can copy and paste it in your address bar.
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Author:
beno (TX)
Thanks for responding. I actually have a photobucket account, but the site's been down all day. Tried box.net and another site with no luck. I noticed they can be opened with a right click and new window.
So I can melt that bump out away at the cast iron hub, eh? Sounds tricky not to melt away the lead in the hub itself. Just work from the top down, go slow? This looks like the best solution if I can get to that 1.5" stub out without screwing up.
Thanks!
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Author:
packy (MA)
you won't melt the lead in the hub. don't worry about that..
the worst that will happen is there may be a 1/4 inch lip at the end of the brass ferrule. grind or cut it off. it is soft brass. then get the appropriate size fernco rubber coupling to transition to PVC..
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Author:
beno (TX)
Hey, again, thanks for your help. I want to be sure before I destroy this lead pipe that I know what I'm doing. Here's a photo of the inside of it:
I was expecting to see a darker color for the brass, but it looks just like the lead to my untrained eye. Further down, the color changes to what I'd think is the cast iron.Here's a sketch of my understanding of your directions from yesterday:
Is the Tee shown installed in the right direction? Was thinking of melting the lead with a propane torch with a cut pie tin wrapped around the top of the cast iron hub to catch the drips, and a wet rag under the pie tin to keep the lead in the cast iron cool. Does that make sense?
Thanks again, Ben
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Author:
beno (TX)
Yes, Steve, that's the area I figured he was describing. I've never had to melt a lead pipe connection to do a repair and never heard of a wiped lead joint, so I probably shouldn't be asking twice. But that pipe section looks so much like lead that I just wanted to get Packy, or anybody knowledgeable, to take a look at it to confirm his diagnosis before I started melting stuff.
Thanks, Ben
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Author:
steve (CA)
Reach down and sand the "brass" part and you'll see the true color.
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Author:
beno (TX)
Tried sanding with a belt sander belt and even tried metal polish, but never got a "gold" look - just brown. I can tell it's much harder than the lead though, because, scratching the brass with a screw is way more difficult to do than scratching the lead. So I'm good with the melt job, thank you, guys.
Do I have the sanitary tee turned the right way in the sketch?
Thanks for all the help! Ben
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Author:
steve (CA)
Yes on the tee, but a combo or wye would be better(less chance of "stuff" being deposited at the vent opening).
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Author:
beno (TX)
well, I'm working on this thing, but still need some help, please. Here's the brass pipe with the lead melted off:
Turns out that the 4" tall fernco flex coupler, connected to a 4x4x2 pvc fitting, will be an inch too tall for the toilet flange. I talked to Fernco and was told that their 2.13" tall Proflex couplers won't work with the brass 4" because it's too thin. It's sticking out of the cast iron hub 1 7/8" and is slightly tapered: it's about 4 3/8" OD at the base and 4 3/16" OD at the rim. I could cut it down to 1" and put a Proflex on there, which would solve my riser height problem, but I'm concerned that it might not pass an inspection, plus, due to the taper, it's not going to seal completely at the top edge of the lower band clamp, leaving a narrow area that will always have a layer of moisture ponding in it. That would be the case, even with the 4" Fernco, as well.
So is that tapered pipe an issue? If not, I could use the 4" Fernco with a 4x4x2 street fitting, which would also solve my riser height issue. Nobody in town has that pvc fitting in stock - would have to order, though. The next thing I could do right now is melt the brass pipe out of the cast iron hub and use a push gasket to go straight to 4" pvc. That would be a pain in the ass, but might be the best fix.
Any advice is appreciated. Thanks, Ben
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Author:
packy (MA)
4 x 2 street sanitary tee will do it..
or put a bushing into the fernco and use a 3 x 2 street san tee.
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Author:
beno (TX)
Thanks, Packy! I'll order one.
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Author:
steve (CA)
I would cut it down and use the ProFlex. The inside of a shielded coupling isn't smooth, it has a couple of ridges that really put the seal against the pipe.
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