Hello everyone. I am attempting to move my water supplies and drain for a sink in a bathroom. They need to move up and left from their current position (see photo below). Moving them up should not be a problem, but moving them left is the headache.

I am installing a pedestal sink and want the water supplies and drain perfectly centered behind it. However, if I move the hot water supply pipe left to where I want it, the right edge of the stud would dissect it down the middle. Is there any code compliant way of getting my hot water supply pipe where I want it?

Any help is greatly appreciated.

use a 1 1/2 inch hole saw to drill right into the stud. hold the 1/4 hole saw bit up against the side of the stud and drill a nice 3/4 inch smile from inside to outside. the tubing will snug right into the half hole.

It is a WATER line. What makes it necessary that it be EXACTLY at that location, rather than 1/2" further to the right?

Thanks for such a quick response! Unfortunately, I'm a little lost on what exactly you mean. I drew a picture (below) to make sure we are on the same page for what I want to do. Basically, it would be a 3/4" half circle (channel) down the side of the stud. I've seen code for what sized holes and notches you can make in studs, but they all seem to reference a notch in the front or hole through the side. The half circle from a 3/4" hole saw would penetrate 3/8" through the 1 1/2" width of the stud (which is 25% of the width of its front side).

If the above is ok and legal, my thought was to allow the pipe to enter the hole (see pic) by a few inches. Then use a 90 degree elbow to extend the pipe up to the level of the channel... 90 degree elbow again to direct the pipe back to the stud close to the channel followed by a final 90 degree elbow once more to feed the pipe out the channel and through drywall.

Does all of this sound ok? This may be pretty much what you are saying, I am just trying to confirm. Thanks so much!





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It's a pedestal sink and I want to install it like the picture in following link:

[#$%&]

I want the rigid water lines from the faucet handles to drop directly down onto the angle stops (not at an angle). Unfortunately, I can't move the sink by a 1/2" to accommodate. This is all about aesthetics. Otherwise, I'd already be done with this project.



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since you will be removing the sink's 'waste arm' and relocating the san T higher you can just 'sister' the stud on the left and notch out on the right all you want

you MUST raise the san T else you form an (unventable) 's' trap

you are my idol, seeking 16 - 22 - 8

trap 16 aff

water 22 aff

water 8 c-c

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"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

No, bernabeu, you are My idol! I wasn't going to raise the T... I was going to go straight up from where the waste line sits currently... which would have failed inspection apparently. Thanks a million for pointing this out to me.

Do you see any code issues with putting trap at 23 1/4" aff and water at 25" aff? These are the recommendations from the sink manufacturer (American Standard sink) and will "hide" these things a little better. Sorry if that removes me from your idol list.



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Is sistering the stud possible, as recommended above, since I have copper pipes running through (see pic below)?

** That's a 2 x 6 stud.

Don't forget the backing for the sink.

Yep - thanks. Planned for that.

you will be cutting the waste

cut the Cu as well

sister as you will

rerun them both


you, and perfection, are still my idols

use the specs on the fixture to determine your 'roughing'

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"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

Cutting the cu to the left of the stud requires more sweating... but, oh well... practice makes perfect. Or I guess there is always the SharkBite and PEX route.

Thanks for everyones help!



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As a practical matter, ALL you will see of the riser tubes is the bottom so you can put in your "vertical" tubes and then offset as necessary in the "pocket" under the sink. No one else will know OR care.

Great point, hj. I just discovered today that the chrome riser tubes are flexible. I have a lot to learn.

Can anyone speak to if a sister stud is required in my case? The huge existing notch to allow the existing 1 1/2" waste pipe (see previously posted pic) would have to be cut again 5 1/2" higher when I move that pipe up.

Since I'm leaning towards just having the water supplies at 7 1/4" apart (instead of 8", I would no longer need to sister for the sole purpose of drilling a channel for the 1/2" copper line (the starting question of this post). If I need to sister to be both safe and/or legal, that's what I need to do.

NO HIDDEN SHARK-BITE TYPE FITTINGS

If you are happy with bending the 'speedy connectors' (old slang for the chrome plated soft temper Cu tube connectors) merely center the stops at whatever height you can on the right side of the stud.

Since a 2X6 you may simply raise the drain and re-notch.

ps. the REAL old way was to hard pipe with 1/2 or 3/8 actual pipe and then 'swing over' if necessary with pre-bent 1/4 'pig tail' faucet connectors - hence the term 'speedy connector' for the newer flexible chrome plated connector.




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"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

Not a plumber but I would sister it.

Here is what I would do if I have to do it.

(1) Cut the two copper lines left of the stud. Cap it with sharkbites or John Guest caps if necessary to re-establish water for the rest of the house.

(2) Cut the drain line left of the stud.

(3) Do what you need to do to raise the tee. Probably just cut the pipe and splice in a higher tee. Be careful to secure the pipe above when you cut it. One time I did not do it as soon as I removed the cut tee, the pipe above fell down 8" and it was a nightmare to get it to seat back into the roof vent boot.

(4) Now why is there a piece of cut 2X6 left of the stud? Is it possible your stud is already a piece of sister? I would look up and see if that stud goes all the way to the top plate or if it's nailed to something else half way up. You might try to remove the cut piece to the left and start from the bottom plate all the way to a point above where your new drain line will pass through. I would use both adhesive between the wood members AND screws/nails. Then drill a hole through the double 2x6 for your drain, and two small holes for your supply lines.

(5) I would measure everything and sweat your new supply lines and elbows somewhere else. Once done, then put them into place and only sweat the two new connections. This way you don't have to sweat too many joints too close to this insulation that catch fire easy.



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bernabeu - I think I am content with bending 'speedy connectors' under the sink. I'm guessing the angle stops will be 3 1/4" each side of the faucet (instead of 4". The sink allows it, so I can live with it.

sum - All good points. I wrote out a plan yesterday that is similar to what you spelled out. I like your sharkbite idea for the sole purpose of capping it off temporarily so the rest of the house is not without water. Thanks for the advice in #3... I was assuming the ABS pipe from above is cemented into something above... so would not just fall(?). I'll look into your #4. I already began sweating the copper runs with a cap on them, as you suggested - so I should just have to sweat 1 fitting per line left of the stud. This will be my first time sweating copper in the house so turning the water on for the first time afterwards will be the scary part.

The only minor difference in your plan is I'm planning on sweating the water lines prior to fixing the drain. This will give me more room to breath when using the torch.

Question - I bought one of those fire resistant clothes to place behind the work, but would anyone suggest I remove some of the insulation prior to torching? I will have a fire extinguisher at the ready, just in case... but I don't want to have to use it.

BTW - this is what the right side of the previous pedestal sink was attached to behind the wall... a thin strip of wood glued to the back of the drywall. No wonder my stud finder was flipping out.

moisten the insulation with a spray bottle of water AND use the 'shield'

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"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

That sounds like a plan.

Regarding whether the pipe is secured above or not, if you don't know it's best to assume it's not. In my case it was cast iron pipe and it was heavy, and being an @#$%& after I cut it and removed the tee, the pipe didn't fall. It was only when I walked away and came back with the new tee, and tried to measure the gap the upper piece came falling down. Not only it fell out of the roof vent boot, it fell on top of the lower pipe, and cracked that pipe. So it was a hard lesson. Also bear in mind even if it's secured above, you don't know with what. If it's only secured with a strap, that could work itself loose when you cut the tee with the vibration of your saw.

Regarding whether to put in the drain first or sweat the copper first, it would be easier to do the sweating first, when you have more room to work, then do the drain after. You have to do the drilling from the other side, for the copper lines and the drain, because there may not be room to fit a drill on this side.

For me, when I had insulation in this case, I would lift the insulation out of the way, and use the shield. I had a plumber install a water heater once and he was using a torch inside wall cavity and the insulation was out of the way and it was just a few loose strands it caught fire and spread very quickly. We put it out real quick but it was a real scare. You could spray water on it but once these fiberglass insulation get wet and matted down, it loses it's effectiveness anyway so why bother.

Phase #1 Complete! And it's thanks to all of the helpful input from this forum!

Sum - using the Shark Bite stops was genius. I move through all of this at such a slow pace, the wife would have killed me if I left the water main off during all of this.

I had to cut through the copper with a recip saw because there was not enough room for my "close quarters" pipe cutter - a Rigid model. Therefore, the pipe ends were not cleanly cut. Even with the rough ends, the Shark Bites are working flawlessly.

I was prepared with something to prop up the drain pipe (if it were to try and drop), but it seems nicely fixed in place. I wedged part of the drain pipe I cut to align it to the pipe below since it dripped continuously for 30 minutes or so. I'm lucky I don't have to deal with cast iron... all ABS.

The short stud left of the main stud is an unknown. There is nothing above it behind the wall and it sits a few inches above the floor - strange. I'm thinking I should maybe cut the drywall down to just above the molding, giving me room to remove the short sister and install the new sister from the floor up to well past the new, higher drain notch.

I am going to have to temporarily remove the insulation before sweating the pipes. The insulation is really wedged between the back wall and the copper pipes - no room to work around the pipe in its current state, but no biggie.

Thanks again for all of the feedback. I can't tell you how much it has really helped and improved my confidence that maybe I'll even pass the permit inspection.





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you may or may not be able to remove the short stud. It may be toe nailed to the bottom plate in which case you may not have the room to pry them out with the pipe and the other stud in the way. You also may not be able to remove it if it is screwed in on the sides. For example, it is possible the sheetrock on the other side of this wall has a vertical joint where the short stud is so they put it there so they can screw that down. If you brute force it out you may tear holes into the wall on the other side. If it's there securely and not easily removed may be you just put a sister right on top of it.



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mini cutter



they come 'pro' or 'cheapo'



==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

Yes, sum... I think I'll stack the sister on top of the short piece. The short piece is shy of the floor by about 3 inches, but would be hard to remove none the less. I should have mentioned earlier, but the other side of this wall is an interior room and the height of the wall is only 7' with nothing overhead... as in the wall doesn't go to the ceiling. I'm sure there is a term for that - faux wall(?). My point being it can't possibly be load bearing.

bernabeu, yes - I have one similar... but it was still too big. I just picked up the small, orange and grey doughnut that only cuts 1/2" pipe which is even lower profile, since it doesn't need the tightening knob, etc. If this one is too big, I'll have to open the other side of the wall up.

Copper pipes do flex a little. At times when its real tight to cut with a tubing cutter, I would jamb a piece of 1x2 or some shim upstream of the cut location to deflect the pipe from the wall for the cutting.

are u done yet ?

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"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

Ha... no. I'm slooooow...

I removed the insulation from the area... it was just in the way too much and easily removed. Now I can tack up the fire protection cloth behind the copper work for an easier time of it. I'm actually going to practice sweating with a 2x2 sheet of drywall and the protection cloth in the garage today before attempting it in the bathroom. Safety first!

I do have another question... what would you recommend for joining the sister board to the stud (its just balancing in the photo) - nails or lag bolts? If nails, 10d (3", yes? Also, what would be the "nailing configuration"... as in where in the 2x6 and how often. If left on my own, I'd nail 2 vertical rows 1" from the outside edges about every 6". However, this is getting permit reviewed. How close am I to the correct answer?

when sistering wood:

glue and screw

the screw is to act as a clamp for the glue

use actual carpenter glue

any self drilling screw will do


STILL not done

remember: aim for perfect, settle for very good, don't redo in a vain attempt at perfection

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"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

Part of the slow part is constantly discovering I need more "stuff" from the hardware store. Now I have to run out for glue and longer screws than I have at the house.

So, screws every 6"... 2 vertical rows?



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imo;

stagger them about every 4"

they are mere clamps for the glue to set



have a nice trip




==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

That sistered stud is not doing much to repair the original notch and being that the stud wall is just a partition wall, with no load from above, the inspector probably wouldn't even require the reinforcement. The original notch should be filled in solid with a glued block and the sistered stud should go down to the floor or at least much lower than it does. No need to nail or screw the heck out of it. Glue, clamp and a few nails/screws.

Hey Steve,

Thanks for your comments. The last picture I posted shows the new sister (just balancing) on the left of the original stud. It is sitting on a shorter sister piece that was already in place. The shorter sister is off the ground by an inch or so (I don't know why) and they used a 2 x 4 (instead of notching a 2 x 6 to match the other side). As I was discussing with someone else in this thread, the short sister block would be difficult for me to remove. I could add blocking to the space behind the short sister, below the new sister if it needs it(?).

Since I didn't mention this wall is a partition wall (non-load bearing) until after my initial post, others may agree with you that adding a block to the lower notch (without installing a sister) may be fine. I'm just not sure how picky the inspector will be. It would be great of I could get THE inspector to come out, look at what I've got and make his recommendations on what will pass, right?

At this point, my thinking is if I add the sister and the inspector didn't require it, it will still pass inspection(?). If I don't and it is required... lots of rework.

On your point about the sister needing to touch the ground... my understanding is that sister's aren't required to touch the ground or run the full length of a stud/joist. I've read the sister must extend "beyond" the damaged bit on each end. How much further??... I haven't found that answer. Is my understanding incorrect?

Thanks again.

you are WAY over engineering this

sister it and be done

the easiest way is to glue and attach with self drilling construction screws instead of clamps and DONE



"TEK" is one brand, but you only need the cheapest for your application

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"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

Agree with steve.

Your wall is non-load bearing so you don't need to make it structurally sound.

However, depends on the locale and inspectors, they may or may not give you a hard time. Down here, the plumbing inspector coming out may be less picky about how you sister the stud then the framing inspector.

As to the best way for mending the stud, your existing stud runs from bottom plate to top plate, but is notched in two areas. The new sister stud is going to span over the two notches, and you are transferring shear (not bending or compression) over to the sister stud. The strongest way to transfer shear stress is to maximize the fastened areas. This means using construction adhesive/cement and nails. When it comes to shear screws are not as strong as nails. You can either use a pattern of 8d or 10d nails across the sister studs, or glue them, or do both. Just glue together and a couple of screws to hold them while glue sets will also do. Glue only OK, nails only OK, screws only not OK. As far as whether the sister need to extend to the bottom plate. I thought your existing short stud goes all the way down, no? If not, just get a piece of 1X4 or shim to tap it under the gap to bridge it. The higher existing notch may need to be mended if the inspector is picky. If you are concerned then cut a piece of 2X4 fitting that notched space and glue it in. What happened to the notched out piece for the new pipe? Use that.

But since it's non-load bearing, a lot of this is not necessary but for you to sleep better at night and to not give the inspector a reason to flag anything.

Thanks all...

I sister'd the stud (glue'd and screw'd) and finished sweating in the hot water line to its new location. I just learned to sweat copper a few days ago, so turning on the main water was a bit nerve racking. But, it all held, so if I can do it...

Tomorrow I should have time to finish the cold water side and rebuild the drain.

FYI - the previous notch in the 2x6 stud for the the 1 1/2" sink drain pipe was cut 2 1/2" deep (I believe the max for non-load bearing is 2 1/8" for a 2x6). So, thinking I'd "do the right thing", I cut the new notch at 2 1/8". Unfortunately, I've determined the pipe needs every bit of the 2 1/2" inches to allow the pipe and the 90 elbow to fit behind the drywall. I can't see another way around just cutting the new notch to 2 1/2" and using the "...that's the way it was when I found it..." excuse for the inspector.

Years ago, one of the NASCAR teams used to "help" the inspectors by loaning them their micrometer for the inspection. The problem was it was intentionally miscalibrated so it allowed the car to pass. Maybe you can do the same thing by having a special ruler made with wider spaces so your notch WILL be "legal:.

I like it!

If only I knew the inspector's favorite food...

I passed the inspection!! Thanks to everyone for helping me out so-o-o much and allowing me to avoid some disastrous mistakes. The only think he mentioned right away was the shielded coupling on the vent pipe. After telling him I only had a little bit of play in the pipe and how I found out about its use on a plumbing forum, he went to the car to make a phone call... returned and told me it was legal.

Now to add some insulation and close her up. Thanks again everyone!





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