We had a sewer line back-up Tuesday, water drained from the upstairs tub, had backed-up into the downstairs shower, and the toilet would not flush without filling up to the rim. Had a plumber out Wednesday, cost us $360.00. He snaked the toilet drain, found a clog, cleared it, (Some sort of wipes had been placed down the toilet), he then ran a camera down the drain/pipe found what he called a "Belly" that the camera would not pass by. Said we would have to get that fixed. They replaced the toilet, and it would not seat to the floor, shimmed it, hooked the water up, and called it done. Drains were draining so we were happy. Later that evening I flushed the toilet and it leaked all over the place from under the base.

Thursday my wife and I, removed the toilet to figure out why it wouldn't seat properly on the floor. The plumbers had dropped a flange bolt between the drain and the and foundation (It was lost), to prevent that from happening again, they placed the bolts into the slot of the flange, then held them in-place with nuts. The nuts prevented the toilet from seating properly. Good thing I did not crack the toilet trying to seat it by force. So nuts removed, shims removed, new wax seal, seated the toilet, bolted it down, and leak fixed.

Friday, water starts backing up again. We called them to ask some questions about it. We are told we can't warrant the work, because....

A)The toilet could not be seated....Because you screwed it up, my wife and I fixed it.
We cleared the blockage....The first one, but not the second one at the so call "Belly"....My wife and I cleared that blockage.
C)The "Belly" has to be repaired....Where they are saying there is a "Belly" we found there is a clean-out there, and that area was seriously blocked with hard white, crusty stuff, hence the reason the camera would not clear it.

So now when we flush a toilet, drain the tub, there is heavy water flow past that clean-out (This is right by the house), and at the second clean-out (This is by the city easement). So it appears to be draining properly at this time.

Now there is standing water at the clean-out closer to the house.

Is this normal?
Is the "Belly" right there at the clean out?
If the belly is right there, do I need to excavate along the pipe, cut it out, and replace a section of pipe along with the clean-out?

We have snaked from the one clean-out to the other and found no blockages that way, we have ran a water hose that way to check water flow and it is strong. So we are thinking no blockages that way.

I have taken a shop-vac and cleared the standing water from the clean-out area, then flushed a toilet, water flows quick, but it fills back up in that area. We have ran a snake and a water hose from that clean-out towards the house, just to check the flow. Flow is fast and no blockages found. We have looked at "Belly" pictures on-line and our line does not appear to have a sag to it, but then again I am not a plumber, so what would I know!

Any and all help is greatly appreciated, as we will not pay someone to come out here again to do a half-arse job, if we can do this ourselves. My wife went to the companies facebook page, and asked about the job they did, and showed pictures of the blockage we found at the clean-out, still waiting to hear back from them.


Mike
TSgt, USAF Retired (100% Disabled)



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It sounds as if there is no blockage but you do have a low spot in the piping. There should be no standing water in the piping. If you keep the wipes out of the drains it might be years before you have any more problems with the pipe. If it keeps clogging you will need to excavate the pipe any make the repairs. I'd wait and see.

Yeah, needless to say the wipes thing irked us, my wife and I are adamant about not putting wipes down the drain.....But you never know what your kids have done. The last one moved out about 9 months ago....So that should not be an issue again. Trying to get photo bucket to work right so I can up-load pictures of the blockage we found.

After we were done we took a shower upstairs with the drain closed just in case. After we were done, I watched the shower downstairs, as she released the water upstairs to make sure it didn't back up into the downstairs shower again, then I went outside and watched the water flow by at the clean-out next to the house, then to the clean-out at the easement. We had water flow at all areas. When all was done there was clear standing water in the clean-out next to the house. So this is where I am guessing the "Belly" is correct?

Mike
TSgt, USAF Retired (100% Disabled)



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The blockage!

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Taking a shop-vac to the blockage!

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The breaking of the Dam!

[s29.postimg.org]


Mike
TSgt, USAF Retired (100% Disabled)



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Who would install a sewer basically on top of the ground? At least in Florida you would not have freezing to cause "ground heave" to create the "belly". It looks like someone grabbed an alligator by the tail and dragged him across the ground, then put the pipe in the groove it caused. I ALWAYS use the extra nuts to set a toilet, so that was NOT the reason it was leaking.



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Soap n Grease? Have you considered having your wasteline "Hydro-Jeted" from inside your house to the street. Poking a hole thru solid grease/soap Jel, doesn't solve the problem for long.

Best Wishes

When toilet is sitting about 1/2 of a inch above the floor and cannot go down further, then it isn't sealing properly. I won't argue that putting a smaller or thinner nut might have worked. But the nuts they placed on the flange to prevent the bolts from moving, prevented the toilet from seating. Now while trying to seat it, it is quite possible the wax seal was damaged allowing leakage. But a toilet should not rock back and forth, left and right and balance on the nuts. We also found a stack of pennies, a quarter, two nickels, and a few dimes that they used to shim the toilet, along with plastic shims.

The hole that the cleanout is in, is about a foot or so deep, I don't know what the normal depth should be, so there I am clueless. Also some areas due to the slope of the yard the line is close to two feet deep. We do get some freezing weather in Panama City, but nothing like other places get that is for sure.

Mike
TSgt, USAF Retired (100% Disabled)



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sounds like you know as much if not more than the "plumber" you hired

they MISSED when they set the bowl

the nut holding the bolts 'should not' have interfered with the 'fit-up'



if 'lined up' no sweat EVER, if not, there STILL should be clearance

The key to setting a toilet problem free is the installation of the flange itself.

The back, or, as hj would insist, the bottom of the flange must sit DIRECTLY on the finished floor.

The toilet must sit DIRECTLY on the finished floor - If floor is uneven the GAPS should be shimmed to avoid rocking and provide 'solidity'.

No part of the toilet should be in actual contact with the flange - the wax MUST have 'breathing room'.
(naturally the nuts on the 'johnny bolts' will contact)

Since we are both old geezers I will give the 'old way' to set a bowl on a tile floor:

Dry set bowl w/o gasket.
'Wiggle around' to find dead center.
Pencil outline on floor.
Using 1/2" wide strips of cardboard shim toilet to rock solid level.
Lift bowl straight up LEAVING shims on floor.
Prep bolts and wax ring and set toilet - easy/peasy with pencil line target.
Mix a cup of plaster of paris and caulk bottom LEAVING SHIMS IN PLACE.
Wait 15 minutes for plaster to 'set up'.
Remove shims and caulk shim holes.

VOLIA - perfection

ps. while plaster is setting one 'preps' the next bowl or actually works on something else like faucet trim

==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638



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Looking at the picture you posted, which is great, there is a bigger gap between the outer lip of the toilet and the lip where the seal goes, so putting a nut on the bolt under the toilet looks like it would clear with no issue. Our toilet, for whatever reason, has a smaller gap between the two, and the depth in that area is very shallow. Could be an older toilet (House built in 86, toilet was replaced in 93, by my father-in-law, right after we bought the house) or some off brand toilet, it was bought at some place called Wests which is no longer in business here, we didn't have a Lowes or Home Depot around here at that time.

Mike
TSgt, USAF Retired (100% Disabled)



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you are correct

the actual 'specs' will vary for different toilets

but, the 'breathing room' WILL exist

and

if lined up 'perfect' the 'hold nut' will fit inside the hole/slot in the china and STILL NOT touch
(or you may try a brass 'jam nut' which is very thin)




if nothing else try the dry fit and pencil technique to ensure perfect 'centering'

but the bowl MUST sit on the floor

levelling you can handle on your own


feel free to 'come back at me', I actually enjoy the trade nit-picking

==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638



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Again I agree with everything you are saying....I think it was more a problem with the plumbers choice of nuts. The nuts they used were square, about an 1 inch or so across, and about 1/4 of an inch thick. Once we removed the nuts, sat the toilet down it seated with no issues, just to be safe we replaced the wax ring, the one they had put down was pretty mangled by now. Toilet centered and seated the first time, tightened the nuts down, did a flush test and no leakage.

Love the banter here, I am learning a lot. Been in this house now coming up on 23 years, and this is the first time we have had to call a plumber out. The cam showed the pipes from the toilet to the "Belly" to be in great shape and they were pretty damn clean. We used a water hose to check flowage from there to the city side and the line appears to be clear and clean (Very strong flow). I am sure that a hydro-jetting of the lines would just make sure there is no other gunk in any other on the lines leading to the main line.

Thank all of you for your input, knowledge, advice and everything in between.


Mike
TSgt, USAF Retired (100% Disabled)



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u r welcome



==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

Or putting the tank on the bowl.

House drains are designed to work properly when you have 1/4" per foot fall. When your home was plumbed the plumber would have determined the depth of the sewer line in the street and made sure that he had proper fall. Once outside of the house (the area between the house and the sewer tie in you can have 1/8" per foot of fall) It sounds to me like you have a flat spot or as you have said a belly which is a form of trap and not what you want for your sewer line. You will have to determine if your Sewer in the Street is low enough to main proper fall. Pray that you have it and that you only have to fix the belly to get proper grade for your drain. As for the problem with the toilet leaking, you need a qualified plumber to set your toilet. Sounds like shims are in order but without a photo of the closet ring with the toilet off and one with the toilet setting on the closet ring I cannot say. Good luck.



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