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Author:
balavay (WI)
Hello all,
My first post, hope someone can help
I've replaced the kitchen sink, faucet, and disposer but now I am not sure how to modify the plumbing. There was a double sink originally but the drain holes were in different locations. It seems like the disposer can still connect to the old drain using a P trap, but the other side is on top of the 'old' piping. My main question is if there is a way to connect everything with minimal modifications to the current setup? Thanks in advance for any advice or suggestions.
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Author:
Pipe runner (AZ)
no. abandon all this piping and start fresh. trap adapter, trap arm, p-trap, cont. waste.
can you post pic of existing tie in to wall fitting?
here's what it should look like:
[i401.photobucket.com]
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Author:
balavay (WI)
Thanks for such a quick reply! I was afraid that was going to be the answer... The previous setup seemed 'strange', but I am no plumber.
And thanks for sharing that pic. How does it go from the p trap to the wall? Also, is it 'better' to have the disposer drain going down and the other side crossing over or does it not matter - would it be ok to have the disposer crossing over to the other side - it seems that would be better in my case due to the location of the wall drain? Do you have an air gap on your dishwasher? Not sure about my local code, but I would like to use the high loop instead of the air gap. Is that a bad idea?
Absolutely, here is the picture of the wall connection and a close-up.
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Thanks again for your help!
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Author:
balavay (WI)
Here is the setup that I was trying to describe. Does the first (rough sketch) picture match what you were suggesting? Is that the cont. waste?
Also, since I need to cut the piping by the wall, looking at the second picture, do I need to make cuts at #1 or should I just cut at #2? And would I be able to unscrew the piece A from the iron pipe in the wall?
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Author:
packy (MA)
part "A" will unscrew from the iron pipe behind it. "A" might break but it won't matter since you are replacing it.
clean up the female threads with a wire brush and screw in PVC male adapter. then do what you had drawn and you will be fine.
BTW, it is prefered to have the trap under the disposer but not necessary.
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Author:
balavay (WI)
Thanks! Couple of more questions:
1. Do I need a big cleanout like the one that I have right now on the 4-way piece that is going into the wall? Or is it enough to have a p-trap with a small cleanout at the bottom?
2. When going from the disposer over to the cont. waste (is that the correct name for the piece going down from the other sink?) do I need to have that pipe at a slight downward slope or does it not matter?
3. Should I use slip joints (poly washer outside the pipe) or direct connect (T-washer inside the pipe)? Which one is better or easier? Or no difference?
4. What should I use to connect the trap adapter to the iron pipe and also when connecting pipes - cement, glue or something else?
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Author:
sum (FL)
If you are a DIYer like me I would recommend at point A you put in a trap adapter. That would not only give you an easier way to disassemble the piping in the future in case you need to snake it, it would also make it much easier to assemble the pipe configuration you had planned with some wiggle room to slide this way or that. Doing it all with hard pipe connections could be tricky.
The down side is you need to switch to tubular pipes with a trap adapter.
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Author:
sum (FL)
I am not a pro so this is not professional advice.
(1) If you put in a trap adapter, I think it's easiest to just think of the trap adapter as your cleanout because the pipe inserted into the trap adapter can be removed quickly and easily. To try and integrate another CO in the pipe configuration is much more complex. The CO at the bottom of the p-trap I believe are for draining the p-trap water before you take it apart.
(3) I think once you put in a trap adapter, you have to go with tubular slip joint connections.
(4) That depends on what kind of trap adapter you get, PVC or otherwise. Me personally in this situation I would probably get a brass trap adapter with a male threaded connection to screw into the iron pipe with lots of pipe dope. Then tubular piping under your sink. I suppose you could also use a PVC trap adapter which would be cheaper.
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Author:
balavay (WI)
Thanks for taking the time to reply. I am definitely a DIYer and might not be using the best terminology when it comes to plumbing. I really like the 'much easier' ideas.
Brass adapter, is this it - [www.homedepot.com] ?
Tubular pipes - do you mean that I will have to use brass instead of PVC pipes? That is ok, I prefer 'better' than 'cheaper'.
As for the 'pipe dope' - I see thread sealant, plumbers caulk at Home Depot. Do you maybe have a pic/link of what you use?
Ok, all makes sense about the clean out and p-trap. Do I need a p-trap with that small cleanout, it just seems like another place that can leak?
sum (FL) - I found one of your posts (if that is you), [www.plbg.com] which looks like my setup, is that correct?
Thanks in advance again!
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Author:
sum (FL)
Yes a brass trap adapter like that. Since you will be using tubular plastic piping under the sink, I think I would find a brass trap adapter that uses a nylon ferrule instead of a brass one. In my way of thinking if I slide in a copper pipe I would use the metal ferrule if I slide in a PVC tubular pipe then a nylon one. I would also suggest a solid brass trap adapter some are just brass plated junk and would probably corrode very quickly.
Tubular here I meant the plastic tubular pipes. If you go to HD where they sell p-traps they have two kinds, the SCHEDULE 40 PVC types and the tubular types.
To make threaded joint connection you need "pipe joint compound" aka "pipe dope", "PTFE tape" or sometimes referred to as "teflon tape" but it doesn't have any teflon in it, or both.
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Author:
balavay (WI)
Thanks. Would it be ok to use something like this - [www.homedepot.com] - to make the connection between the wall drain and the new PVC piping? I am only asking because I can already envision cutting the pipe and having problems with removing that part A. It seems like it would be easy to leave part A in and use one of these rubber couplings. Ok idea or bad idea?
Also, I came across this site and picture, saying that it is better to have own p-traps for each side, then join them using a wye connector - [www.nettally.com]
Would that be good for me or not necessary?
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Author:
srloren (CA)
You should attempt to plumb this as shown in the 2nd post at the top of this message. It appears that you should cut into the wall and lower the san tee that comes out of the wall to 14" off the floor. You can use no hub type couplings to lower the san tee and fill in the vent above the santee with no hub couplings also. When you accomplish this part of the installation, you will have the proper height so you can use a 2 part waste. The photos with the measuring tape showing the height suggests that the pipe is too hign for proper installation. All the best.
As is suggested in a post below, you may not find a san tee but a med sweep elbow in the wall and that would make it more difficult to lower the outlet, but it could be done... just a lot more work. But in the end it will be plumbed correctly. Two part waste with one trap is how 90% of installs are here in California, I am betting. But you can tell if it is a Tee or a elbow by removing the nipple that comes out of the wall and use a flash light and an inspection mirror to see if the waste goes down or sideways. All the best.
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Author:
sum (FL)
You can use one of those shielded coupling if you have enough pipe. You don't have enough pipe, you have two fittings glued together with a short piece of pipe in between where you drew line line A. These couplings connect pipe to pipe, not fitting hub to hub. You don't have much choice but to remove your fitting A from the iron pipe.
I would cut them at where you indicated "1"s and just turn the entire fitting to unthread it from the iron pipe.
As to whether you put in a double wye and a CO with individual ptraps I will wait for a pro to respond to that. I have done it either way it depends on the situation. But if you want to go that way you have to hard pipe everything and wouldn't be using a trap adapter.
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Author:
packy (MA)
opinion number 714..
unscrew the fitting at the iron pipe.
screw in a male adapter. put a short piece of pipe and glue on a "Y".
glue 2 pipe adapters into the "Y'.
pick up the disposer with one side and the sink trap goes into the straight part of the "Y". to snake out the drain you remove the sink trap.
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Author:
balavay (WI)
sum (FL) - Thanks yet again. I've made the cuts and turned/unthreaded the entire fitting from the iron pipe as suggested (I guess now I understand better what packy was saying in his earlier reply). Now I also see what you mean about not having enough pipe, so I cannot use those couplings.
Ok, so I've run into a new problem as you can see in the first two pics (only dry fitted) - the two part p-trap does not come high enough to connect to the trap arm. Even if I cut the outlet tee, it does not seem like it would bring it high enough. Is it ok to reverse the p-trap in this case (like I am showing in pic #3)? I've read about possible leaks at the short end of the trap but also that by some codes traps are ok at 2-4". Plus I can see that the 'bend' is making water go straight up at the end, but would that be a problem here? Any advice/suggestions? I really don't want to cut into the wall, I just want something that would work for now...
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srloren (CA) - is the above problem what you were seeing happening by pointing out that 'the pipe is too high'?
packy (MA) - thanks for yet another option but I would like to avoid making hard connections. I just wanted to ask if two separate p-traps are really necessary or am I ok with what I've planned.
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Author:
packy (MA)
not the way i would do it.. but these are available and should work. the straight pipe from the disposer goes into the side of the tee and the 90 goes under the sink.
P/S.. do not reverse the trap, it will not work..
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Author:
balavay (WI)
Thanks packy, I'll go get that setup.
1. Since the disposal drain will be straight into the tee, would the water from the sink go to the disposal? Do I need to get the disposal line to slope downward a bit toward the tee?
2. When inserting the PVC pipe into the brass trap adapter in the wall, how far does the PVC pipe need to go 'in'?
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Author:
packy (MA)
1) that tee must have a baffle in it so water doesn't cross over. problem is that baffle can clog every once in a while (depending on how often machine is used) but it is easy to clean.
just running the water for a few seconds after using the disposer to wash things thru the tee will help keep it clean.
2) you only need to insert the tube about an inch past the nut. a little more will not hurt. too much more and the tube could reach the elbow or tee inside the wall and cause major headaches.
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Author:
sum (FL)
I would follow Packy's suggestions.
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Author:
srloren (CA)
REPLY TO SIX POSTS ABOVE: Yes, your tee in the wall is too high. To use one trap just cut open the wall and lower the tee. Then you can use a 2 part waste. Do you know if you have ABS, pvc, galvanized or Cast Iron (no hub) pipe or it could even be hubbed cast iron if it is old enough? If you have ABS or PVC it is a piece of cake, otherwise you will need special tools to remove galvanized, like a sawzall to cut out the pipe. With No Hub, you may be able to remove the bands and remove the Cast Iron and take it to a plumbing shop and cut it or you can replace the CI with ABS and use no hub couplings to complete the piping in the wall. Also I would not use the Tee on its back even if it had a baffle. Like was mentioned, the baffle reduces the drain opening size and it will cause blockages with vegetables that don't grind up totally.
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Author:
packy (MA)
lowering the tee if it is DIRECTLY behind the wall is pretty straight forward. BUT, if the tee is off to the side and there is a trap arm with a 90 behind the wall... then not so easy. drilling the studs being one reason..
it could be something like this..
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Author:
balavay (WI)
packy - I've tried the split tee but it made it difficult to 'line up' with the trap adapter, I would have to use a few more connections. So I did not end up doing it that way.
But, after looking at it and measuring a few more times, I've made it work with what I had in the pics before - by cutting the vertical tee so that the p-trap connects to the wall:
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Well, still not done, since I have a leak at the trap adapter/connector, see these two pics:
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This is a pic of the wall drain with the brass connector:
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This is the connector: [www.menards.com]
Also, this is what I am using to seal the threads between PVC and brass connector (it also has a brass ferrule). Is this the wrong 'stuff':
[s24.postimg.org]
Thanks in advance for any help!
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Author:
sum (FL)
I was going to suggest you cut that tailpiece short by the amount the wall connection is too high to make up the difference.
I bet it is leaking from the tubular plastic to brass trap connection, and not the brass to iron pipe connection?
The brass to iron pipe connection, as long as you have plenty of pipe sealant and torque it down you should be OK.
As for the plastic to trap adapter, you don't need any pipe sealant. The nut and ferrule provides a compression seal and you don't need anything else. Personally I don't like using a metal ferrule on plastic pipe. Last month I used the exact same one you had and I had to really tighten the nut to get a water tight seal, so I end up removing the brass ferrule and put in a cheap $1 plastic ferrule and that did the job by hand tightening and nothing more. Good luck.
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Author:
balavay (WI)
Yeah, I was only eyeballing the tailpiece at first and it did not seem it would give me enough height, but then decided to actually measure and cut it. And it worked fine.
You are correct (again), it is leaking from the tubular plastic to brass trap connection and not the brass to iron pipe connection (I've torqued it good and have plenty of sealant).
Ok, I'll try the plastic ferrule. Is that the washer that I've used on other tubular connections? Or is it really shaped like the brass ferrule that I have as a part of that adapter?
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Author:
sum (FL)
The one you have is one with a metal ferrule. They are also variations out there that use a plastic one. See these pics.
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