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Author:
giantsean (CT)
Hi everyone,
First time poster just looking for a little help. I am doing a large 2nd floor conversion in a 1950's cape in Connecticut, including creating a master bath from a large 2nd bedroom, and having some issues w/ the plumbing. I had hooked up with a P2 licensed plumber (basically a journeyman so I had to pull a homeowner permit) through a friend and so far he has seemed pretty knowledgeable... at least until it was time for the town to come to do the inspection. Overall it wasn't so bad... all good except for two big issues:
Issue 1 - lack of a toilet vent. The plumber said he planned to wet vent to the existing setup (the middle vertical pipe goes into the attic, where it bends and hooks up with the vent from the adjacent bathroom shower which goes up through the roof. I could make another hole but trying to avoid that if possible. The inspector said that's a lot going on to make it fly, so the plumber said we could tie a vent from toilet through floor and into the lav vent. The plan can be seen on one of the attached pics (green markup). This seems workable from my limited knowledge of plumbing, but worth other opinions given all the drama of...
Issue 2 - no space for a tub trap. This one actually concerns me quite a bit as I can't see a way past it. Couple of things happening here... We changed from a 42" tub to a 36" (no fault of the plumbers) but he had already piped in a waste pipe at the 21" center line (vs the 18" we need). Ok fine, we planned to just offset the tub drain a bit and tie in. But during the inspection the inspector asked how I'm possibly going to fit a P trap under there, since the waste pipe is maybe an inch TOPS off of the ceiling in the bay (joists are 2 x 8). I have reviewed a bit and I tend to agree with the inspector. The plumber said we could pitch a pipe up to meet a trap and keep it in the bay, but from what I have read this is a no-no (trap outlet needs to be near-level to avoid siphoning the trap). I am not sure if there is a way to drop it down into the rest of the existing pipe somehow. Also not sure why it's so low in the first place unless it had to be that way to keep the vents above the waste pipes. I'd REALLY like to avoid having to make a hole in the ceiling or mess around with the room below, as it will be in an awkward spot. Hoping for a miracle with this one!
As a picture speaks a thousand words, I have attached three thousand words worth of pictures
Thanks in advance for any advice!
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Author:
KCRoto (MO)
I don't know which code you are under but mine requires a 2" vent for toilets. The problem with the tub trap is solved fairly easily by cutting a hole in the ceiling below and building out a small area. The other way around this is by raising all the drain lines. Putting a second hole through those joists would weaken them beyond acceptable limits, so you would have to basically rebuild the entire floor/ceiling to do so. Doing a little sheetrock work is your cheapest, quickest, and most effective way of dealing with the space limitation. Trying to put in a trap, then trying to horizontally offset the drain just makes it into an S-trap, and will cause the water to siphon out of the tub's trap.
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Author:
packy (MA)
you can put a "Y" into the tub vent and come back thru the joist that the pex is nailed to.
or you can put a "Y" in the drain near where the pex comes up from below. roll that "Y" up, put a 45 in it to aim it at the tub drain and vent that seperately. remove the incorrect "Y" and 45. replace with a couple of 45'S.
no miracle needed. pretty simple fix.
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Author:
KCRoto (MO)
Packy the problem is that he doesn't have the clearance down from the center of the pipe for the P-trap on the tub. The line needs about 2 inches more clearance that he doesn't have.
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Author:
hj (AZ)
Your "green line" vent would not fly, unless it was 2" and you connected the lavatory to it, (which might make a better drain for it anyway). What is that white pipe on the left? It does not seem to perform any purpose that I can see. It can't be the tub vent because it is in the wrong location for that, but it coudl be a place to connect the tub trap. Then it would be the tub's vent. How does the pipe get to the toilet, because it looks like that is coming through the ceiling.
Edited 1 times.
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Author:
giantsean (CT)
The leftmost pipe in the "green line" picture is a shower vent into the pipe up to the attic, which will bend 90 above the ceiling and meet up w/ an existing shower vent in an adjacent bathroom through the roof. I attached another pic to show the wide view. I actually have to clear this design w/ the town but I assume either 1.5" or 2" is not difficult as long as I know in advance.
The bigger concern is the trap though. I also can't see a way to do it right without slotting or scabbing the joists (not ideal I know, but what else can I do?)
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Author:
bernabeu (SC)
go right ahead .. slot / scab the joists .. what's a little structural instability among friends? .. you'll have a pretty lookin' bath to show in exchanged for your now unsafe home
get yourself an architect
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"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638
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Author:
packy (MA)
just glue and screw 4 feet of 3/4 plywood onto the side of the joist. drill a 2 inch hole for the tub drain. as suggested, cut a 1 1/2 inch "Y" into the tub vent.
if you don't want drill any joist, do as i originally suggested. cut in a "Y" back where the pex comes up. roll the "Y" up and put a 45 into it aiming at the tub trap location. this will give you height for the trap belly. cut a "Y" into that horizontal pipe and put a "Y: for a tub vent which will run up the wall the valve is on.. quite simple..
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Author:
giantsean (CT)
That's exactly why I don't want to scab or slot (I should have said "scab AND slot" because I would have to do both) or make any new holes. Believe me I'd love to sister but these joists sit in a block wall.
I received another suggestion that might fly and would reduce the need to drill holes at all. if we vented straight back through each bay, up the wall and then tie into the pipe to the attic. I'd have to check code to see where it would have to go to 2" but either way not a huge deal if we are not making too many holes.
Edited 2 times.
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Author:
hj (AZ)
quote; get yourself an architect
Now THAT will really be an improvement, wouldn't it?
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Author:
hj (AZ)
Do not worry about where you HAVE to go 2", do it anyway to give your self a better system, The tub vent can be 1 1/2" up to where it connects to the 2"toilet vent.
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Author:
m & m (MD)
For the tub trap, I would change elevations to make the trap work (couple of 45*'s. Of course, then it would need an individual vent.
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Author:
sum (FL)
*** NOT A PLUMBER ***
How is the toilet connected to the rest of the system? Is it connected right below the sheetrock downstream to the 2" tub line? I assume you made the connection below because you didn't want to drill a 3" hole in the joist? What's below a basement?
If you wet vent the whole system properly that extra vent line between the lav line and the tub line is redundant. You could raise all the drain lines, but you have already drilled holes, and the toilet line has to be tied in higher for the wet venting to work. Or you could lower everything and do it below, then the trap would be below and you just need to drill a hole for the tub riser to come up though.
Personally I wouldn't individually vent and partially wet vent.
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Author:
giantsean (CT)
Thanks. Yeah the toilet will sit on the 3" pipe sticking up it drops into the room downstairs (1/F) and runs to a downstairs bathroom along the back wall of the house where it ties into the existing 4" house stack. It will be covered w/ a soffit once all this is done. Unfortunately going below is not a realistic option as it's an actual room down there.
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Author:
sum (FL)
How is the tub drain tied into the toilet drain, do they meet somewhere below? If you plumb them as one group and wet vent them all you need is that single lav vent you already have.
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Author:
mr leak (CA)
If you get an architect then you might as well get a lawyer and then ask the man in the orange apron how to do it
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Author:
giantsean (CT)
Just doing some reading on code. Maybe I'm oversimplifying or not seeing it right, but why couldn't a design as illustrated in this link work?
[publicecodes.cyberregs.com]
What got me thinking was specifically this graphic... and I know it's mostly for illustration purposes but... if the trap exit stays level (properly sloped) past 8" (but less than 6') runs parallel with the 2" on the floor and then drops down and over into the 2" pipe, will that not work? Noted that it will need to drop both down AND over to it's left vs. straight down.
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Author:
packy (MA)
you can not do that. the trap is installed higher than the vent so it creates a full "S" trap.
if the sanitary tee was up where it says same as section B, then it would be OK.
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Author:
bernabeu (SC)
you will need to 'sister' the joists in order to drill new holes
or
live with an improper 's' trap
in order to 'legally' sister joists you will need an approved plan of action
should have said engineer, not architect (in NY either could 'stamp' the design)
==============================================
"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638
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Author:
giantsean (CT)
"you can not do that. the trap is installed higher than the vent so it creates a full "S" trap. if the sanitary tee was up where it says same as section B, then it would be OK."
Ah ok... and the sani-tee cannot be there w/o drilling more holes.
All is not lost though... Some of the guys elsewhere had some suggestions which I drew out. Can I assume the below will both work (assuming I do both) without having to change the full elevation of the existing 2" drain pipe (that is sitting too low)? It will be much easier to tie into it there than have to bring it up from where it ties into the floor. But in worst case I can do it.
Edited 1 times.
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Author:
hj (AZ)
You would have to find an inspector who would jeopordize his job by permitting it. Do what you have been told elsewhere and do it right.
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Author:
hj (AZ)
In another site he has been told HOW to do it without drilling ANY joists, all he has to do it DO IT THAT Way, and not try to rationalize some way to make this work.
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Author:
hj (AZ)
Are you listening? You can raise the tub drain as much as necessary because you vent is going to be RIGHT AT TRAP, if you do it properly. We can tell you WHAT to do, the your plumber should be intelligent enough to work from that and get the drains and vents proper. If you wanted two lavatories, the second one would be connected to the tub vent.
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Author:
giantsean (CT)
No I think (I hope) you got me wrong. I fully intend to rework it as per the other advice (assuming it's the one in the pic below). The vent will go up the wall behind the bay that the tub drain is in.
The only thing I wanted to confirm is whether I could tie in the trap somehow to the existing 2" drain somewhere before it drops below the ceiling, as it's already hooked up down below and would be much easier to cut inside the floor. That's all.
If you're saying I can't do that under any circumstance until it goes through the sheetrock into the room downstairs, then it's a moot point
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Author:
m & m (MD)
"...Ah ok... and the sani-tee cannot be there w/o drilling more holes..."
It is possible to install the vent without drilling more holes.
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Author:
packy (MA)
of course you can cut in the new tub drain upstairs between the joists. raise the new drain up high enough to allow for the trap belly and individually vent the tub trap with 1 1/2 inch. tie that vent back into the 2 inch lav/toilet wet vent at least 42 inches above the floor.
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Author:
bernabeu (SC)
Packy,
He will not have enough vertically under the floor to have the required roll on the vent tee.
Whoever roughed it out 'screwed up' resulting in the need for structural modifications to correct piping.
OP: if you wish to 'cheat' on the sistering - you could do both sides for 4' where you need to drill new holes - glue and bolt THOUROUHLY - no need to ride over block work
good luck redoing the job
==============================================
"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638
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Author:
giantsean (CT)
Thanks guys. Believe me I'm sick about it... those holes are bad news and wrecked two joists and two bottom plates for absolutely no reason. It's times like these I wished I asked for advice and literally done it myself.
The saving grace at least is that we did find a workable solution that will allow us to ditch the holes, and scabbed holes are better than open holes. Even if I wanted to do it right and set the sister in the block wall (hoping I don't loosen 60 year old masonry in the process) the wall holding up that floor is buried under that subfloor, and there's no way I could get the 12' board in there without significant un-doing of work.
One more interesting note.. the inspector didn't say a word about the holes or the venting solution... only that there was no room for a trap and that the toilet wasn't vented. I actually wonder what's worse
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Author:
bernabeu (SC)
FYI:
as per: [www.aconcordcarpenter.com]
Scabbing is effective technique that allows you to add strength to and fix minor problems that are affecting floor joists. Scabbing involves taking piece of wood and fastening it over the problem area. I often use glue and screws to fasten 3/4 inch plywood as scabs to both sides of a joist as far as I can attach to.
Reinforcing Floor Joists
Many times I will apply scabs to floor joists that were previously or will currently be notched or drilled to install plumbing pipes.
==============================================
"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638
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Author:
giantsean (CT)
Thanks for that. Yes while it's preferable to never have to do it, I have scabbed many a board with success. I like to do so using 1/4" bolts and fender washers (glue and bolt) due to the greater shear strength.
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Author:
bernabeu (SC)
to be obsessive compulsive:
sand the sides of the joists and 'band-aids' with 40 grit
apply copious amount CARPENTER'S glue with a brush
screw the pieces together for a clamping action to set glue
THEN
use 10 (5 each side in an X pattern) 3/8 bolts with fender washers
Will be the strongest part of the floor !
==============================================
"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638
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Author:
giantsean (CT)
Believe it or not I love being obsessive compulsive... even in a house with so much wrong
Thanks for all the advice
Edited 1 times.
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