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Author:
sum (FL)
So this is a tenant who told me they know how to use a disposer and what not to put in it when I signed a lease with them. As I typically go through the list with everyone on what not to put down there.
Month 1 a kitchen drain clog and I went there and cleared it. The wife said she poured a left over salad down the disposer. I told her it's a disposer, not a garbage can.
Month 2 and 3 another two trips to clear drain. Each time I cleared it with a short 1/4" snake and cleared whatever they had there behind the wall elbow and the stack.
Now it is an older home, so the pipes are smaller. 1-1/4" tubular for the kitchen drain, connecting to 1-1/4" copper behind the wall to the 2" CI stack.
Month 5, major backup, I had a plumber there with an electric snake snake from the roof, and it met some resistance but eventually it was cleared. But there is another issue. The 3" main line where the house exits, if I open the CO I see about 1" of water. If they flush the toilet water rushes by but when things settle again 1" of water. Plumber told me there is a belly in the line. I told him this water wasn't there 5 months ago before they moved in.
Upon further investigation, it turned out the kitchen line, ties to the main line AFTER the main CO. This is verified by no water passing the CO when kitchen faucet is turned on, but I can hear the water rushing through with that CO opened. The plumber said if it's not a belly then there is some debris acting as a "dam" downstream. Plumber sent same electric down the CO for about 50' no improvement, there is still an inch of water in the pipe where the CO is.
Husband then told us he poured coffee ground down the disposer, every morning, for the last 5 months. The plumber said yes, coffee ground built up in the pipe, acting like sand and eventually hardens and constricts the CI pipe. Said I need to do a video to make sure, then probably a power jet from the CO further downstream. Well, I couldn't locate the CO where it connects to the city sewer.
City gave me some lateral maps, that tells me which side the CO is on, but no further information. That part of the pipe is now PVC as it changed from septic to city. Still I had no luck finding the CO which I am sure it's buried somewhere. I decided to wait for now since the drain is still functioning, but I know there is an issue to address some time down the road.
Fast forward to yesterday, another call saying the kitchen drain is clogged. Went over and took apart the pipe between the disposer and the tee below the sink. Here is what I found.
I asked the tenant what that is? Some sort of fiberous materials chewed up by the disposer?
Finally they told me it's artichoke. Every time they had salads they put the artichoke peelings into the disposer.
I asked them, I thought if you Google TOP TEN THINGS NOT TO PUT INTO DISPOSER, you will see artichoke and coffee ground listed. Do they have any common sense or they don't care?
I am going to remove the disposer now. But the thing is, with people with no common sense, wouldn't they just shove corn husks and apple cores down the drain anyways even without a disposer?
Now back to the main drain issue with standing water...I do think I need to get it addressed, but I need to find the CO where it connects to the city sewer. I have an idea within a 10'x10' area based on where my neighbor's CO are and the city lateral location. I have already done the poking a stick around and kicking dirt here and there approach. What is next?
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Author:
KCRoto (MO)
You can get the main line cleared without jetting or finding the cleanout. The problem is after the cleanout, and can be resolved by cabling the main with water running. Jetting is faster than a cable, but in your particular situation, a cable and running water would suffice. In addition, it will clear any root growth from that big ol' tree and save you some cash.
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Author:
North Carolina Plumber (NC)
I once removed a disposal + waste piping that was full of rice. The rice expanded after getting wet and I had to chisel part of it out with a hammer and large screwdriver.
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Author:
m & m (MD)
How deep in the ground is the sewer where you accessed it? With 5 or so months already expired on the lease, on the bright side- you've only got 7 to go.
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Author:
greekguy7 (IL)
Remove it. They obviously don't know how to use it. If they balk, give them all your plumbers bills that they caused.
Your next tenant will probably misuse it also. It never ends.
Edited 1 times.
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Author:
Wheelchair (IL)
Are you charging your renters for the damage or writing it off ? A camera run should reveal some outlets for branch and cleanouts.
Best Wishes
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Author:
hj (AZ)
How old is the disposer, because that mass looks like it is "shredding it" instead of "grinding it".
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Author:
m & m (MD)
From Insinkersator Use and Care instructions:
DON’T...
• DON’T POUR GREASE OR FAT DOWN YOUR DISPOSER OR ANY DRAIN. IT CAN BUILD UP IN PIPES AND CAUSE DRAIN BLOCKAGES. PUT GREASE IN A JAR OR CAN AND DISPOSE IN THE TRASH.
Stop and read Deténgase y lea Arrêter et lire
• Don’t use hot water when grinding food waste. It is OK to drain hot water into the disposer between grinding periods.
• Don’t fill disposer with a lot of vegetable peels all at once. Instead, turn the water and disposer on first and then feed the peels in gradually.
• Don’t grind large amounts of egg shells or fibrous materials like corn husks, artichokes, etc., to avoid possible drain blockage.
• Don’t turn off disposer until grinding is completed and only sound of motor and water is heard.
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Author:
packy (MA)
funny but i thought i read somewhere that ISE also discourages disposing of your christmas tree into their disposer?
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Author:
hj (AZ)
Correct. They recommend putting it in your fireplace and burning it. IF it is too long to go all the way in, you should light the top of it, then keep shoving it in as it burns away. Keep a cup of water on hand in case it gets out of control.
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Author:
Mike Hahn (MD)
Suprisinggly, many people don't use common sense around the house, with a disposal all they see is an electric motor/grinder, they think they can put just anything down there. I think they visualize a shredder like u see towed behind these tree trimming crews. They really don't have a clue. In my business we call this job security.
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Author:
m & m (MD)
There's a lot of miseducation out there with disposers judging by the amount of coinage I remove from them.
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Author:
sum (FL)
"How deep in the ground is the sewer where you accessed it?"
The sewer is shallow where it exits the house, the bottom of the pipe is only about 16" below the top of the CO, may be 12" below ground.
The drain cleaner sent a snake down there for about 50', but there is still water in the pipe, it's not clogging or blocking, just standing water of less than an inch. There was absolutely no water before they moved in.
The house was converted to city sewer in 2009, new PVC pipes were laid by the owner before last. I have no idea how deep it would be at the property line. Probably a lot deeper, may be too deep to do a power sweeping / jetting effectively.
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Author:
sum (FL)
"Are you charging your renters for the damage or writing it off ? A camera run should reveal some outlets for branch and cleanouts."
I am paying the bills myself.
This is kind of a tough decision. I know many landlords charge their tenants for this.
However, my rules are a bit different and I think may be too "tenant friendly".
For example, a window is broken. Who's fault is it? My thinking is if a window is broken by a kid walking by throwing a ball at the window, that's vandalism, and that's on the landlord. However if the tenant breaks the window, then it's on the tenant. However, reality is, you can't prove it one way or another. When a tenant calls and tells you a window is broken, they will not tell you who broke it, they will tell you they come home and found a broken window.
For a drain clog, it's the same. Unless I can prove they caused the clog, I am paying for it. Now usually I go over and take apart the p-trap, and I can snake out the section of the trap arm to a point slightly passed the santee connection. That's fairly simple stuff and if I can take care of it I'll do it for free. When it involves a professional plumber, camera, snake, jet, I "MAY" charge them if I can prove they caused it, most of the time I can't. So if the snaking cause $250, do I pay the $250, or do I pay another $350 for a camera job to find out if it's roots (my problem) or foreign objects (tenant's problem)?
I used to charge my tenants and call in a pro, and what happens is they don't tell you there is a problem. If the kitchen drain clogs, they would pour down Draino, or plunge so hard until the p-trap connections below starts to pull apart, then water drips into the bottom of the sink cabinet, and by the time you find out, you have rotted cabinets, toe kicks and moldy stuff growing out of the cavity there. So now I decide that if it costs me a bit more money and time, I can avoid paying for bigger problems at a later time.
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Author:
sum (FL)
"How old is the disposer, because that mass looks like it is "shredding it" instead of "grinding it"."
No idea how old. Are you saying a better higher grade disposer would not have a clog like this?
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Author:
hj (AZ)
The depth is immaterial to do a proper snaking OR jetting. They did NOT "push the pipe down" so they did not cause the "belly/rise" in the pipe.
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Author:
hj (AZ)
If you don't know how old it is, then it is probably worn out and is shredding instead of grinding, and has nothing to do with the quality of the disposer.
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Author:
sum (FL)
hj, the pipe did not have standing water at the CO in May 2014, in fact never had standing water since 2012.
When they started to have these occasional clogs and last time I looked, the CO at the exit of the house has an inch of standing water, and I don't think it's a belly.
The kitchen drain due to it's location, has a separate line that doesn't tie into the main until it was very close to the septic, this was verified by old plans. For this reason, when they converted to city sewer, the existing kitchen drain ties into the new PVC line downstream of the house CO.
The tenant told me in November they poured coffee ground down the disposer every day since May. That is a lot of coffee grounds put down there. The plumber I hired to snake the drain told me the most likely reason for the standing water is too much coffee ground being deposited in my main drain, and it formed a shallow dam like sand on the beach. He told me the coffee ground when mixed with grease, and other thing will harden. I have no way to verify this one way or another unless I do a camera job.
The reason I mentioned depth is if I try to clear this issue by power jetting as far as I know it needs to be done from a downstream CO and I couldn't find where mine is. Furthermore, I remember one time I hired a jetting job, the CO was very deep and the tech couldn't bend the jetting head towards the house. He had a 1/2" copper pipe with an end pounded flat and he couldn't get the jet to go in that direction due to the CO was a two way CO buried deep.
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Author:
KCRoto (MO)
Sum, a competent drain cleaner with a cable can get the line clean. Having another cleanout down the line is irrelevant if the line is under 100' from the cleanout to the city sewer. The problem with large Jetter hoses is that you can't traverse a turn with some heads since the length of the head and length of the hydraulic fittings can exceed the maximum length that can pass the T. If the nozzle on the Jetter hose is shorter, then it would work fine. You probably had someone that either didn't know how to change the nozzle, or didn't know any better.
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Author:
m & m (MD)
The CO probably was NOT a two way pattern but instead a regular combination Y and 1/8th in the direction of flow which would better explain his inability to make the turn.
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Author:
hj (AZ)
He must have been giving you a "snow job" because a "2 way cleanout" is designed to give a smooth transition into the line going both ways. A "1 way cleanout", however, is designed so that you can ONLY go downstream, no matter how hard you try, which is why he could not go back towards the house. And "depth" has absolutely NOTHING to do with it. A proper snaking job would break up any "dam" in the line and flush it away, so that is another "snow job", or the person cleaning the line is NOT competent to do it.
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Author:
sum (FL)
m & m and hj,
when I said "two way cleanout" I meant there is one of these.
Which is fairly common in Florida because lines are shallow. But the one I had it was at least 6-8 feet below the concrete driveway and he couldn't navigate the jet head to go upstream. I wish it was a real two way CO with two plugs.
hj you might remember this because I posted about it few years ago it was the roto company I hired to rim and scour my CI lines with a frail chain nozzle jetter and the guy used the wrong size head and had it stuck.
[www.plbg.com]
Edited 1 times.
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Author:
sum (FL)
KCRoto and hj,
OK you both say a competent drain cleaner can clean the line from the CO right outside the house all the way to the city connection.
I just did some measurements and from that CO it is about 64' to the property line, with two 90 degree turns. The original septic is in the backyard so the CO is in the backyard, somewhere the new line makes a turn and go to the front yard where the street manhole is.
So I don't need to find the property line CO and have it jet from there backwards? I can just hire a competent drain cleaner to go from the CO forward and they should be able to clean it?
The problem is I must have hired 8-10 drain cleaners over the years and all of them are doing "snow jobs". I had one that had the snake stucked 9' into a toilet CO and told me my CI line collapsed and left the portion of the snake down there, I had one that came with the wrong nozzle size head when he was told my line is 3" CI, I had one who quoted me 4 hour job for $2000 and arrived 30 minutes late and had to go to Home Depot for an hour for a part while the clock's ticking, I had one...so I need to somehow figure out how to find a competent drain cleaner LOL.
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Author:
hi (TX)
I dont think that was an artichoke. They were feeding you a line. It looks like a sock that probably wore out. I usually run these down the disposal so they can brake down easier at the sewage treatment facility.
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Author:
hj (AZ)
No way to tell you that, but a competent one has ALL the heads he needs, knows how to use a cleanout, does NOT have to go to Home Depot for a part before he starts work, etc. He arrives, looks at the situation, takes his snake out of the truck, installs the proper head, inserts it into the cleanout (going the right way), and clears the line. It is best to do this when the line is clogged so you have a head of water to flush it clear when he unplugs it.
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Author:
hj (AZ)
As far as I am concerned, that fitting should be outlawed, and not even be allowed to be manufactured. BUT, aside from that, it is fairly simple to get a snake or jetter to go upstream, you just have to know how to do it.
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Author:
KCRoto (MO)
Yes. A competent drain cleaner will solve your woes. Once you find one, keep his name and technician number on file, and request him each time.
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Author:
bernabeu (SC)
To answer original ? :
NO, and they will flat out refuse to read the instructions.
Until they are required to pay a plumber FULL PRICE.
==============================================
"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638
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Author:
hj (AZ)
You imply that there are plumbers who do not always charge full price. If that were the case, then sum should find them, or maybe that's who is already using.
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Author:
KCRoto (MO)
I think the implication is that the tenants don't have to pay, the landlord does.
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Author:
bernabeu (SC)
the landlord needs to bill the tenant
assuming a proper lease
if no lease, give the bums notice to vacate
ooops .... no more rent coming in
or
stop buying the 'specification grade' galvanized single stage disposal - buy a stainless steel chamber dual or triple stage grind model ($300-400)
or
stop providing disposals and install GRID DRAINS and supply the flat rubber stopper
==============================================
"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638
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