best and simplest picture I have found to explain piping bonds to ground



==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

This is a good read to go along with your diagram

[web.archive.org]

It was a good read, thank you for posting. The section about your neighbor's problem is now your problem proves my point about why using the water lines in the house for grounding is a bad idea.

one does NOT 'use the water pipes in the house for grounding'

one BONDS the metallic piping TO the required electrical ground system

enough of the 'discussion'

it is MINIMUM CODE

==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

by your picture, it appears that if there is a problem with the ground on the stove, the humanoid figure becomes part of the circuit and gets electrocuted.

correct

no system is perfect

the bonding (statistically) will prevent more injuries than it wall cause

eg.

if piping is not bonded - any short to piping from an appliance (water heater, washer solenoid, d/w, garbage disposal) would result in immediate shock/electrocution when a faucet or plumbing fixture is touched instead of tripping the breaker

the equipment grounds are the MOST IMPORTANT aspect of the electrical system from a safety standpoint

ps. the electric stove is a problematic fixture which, generally, is NOT located near the sink FOR THIS VERY REASON


REMEMBER: CODE IS THE MINIMUM - best practice suggests independent grounding from chassis of all major appliances IN ADDITION to the 'corded' ground wire - as is done with industrial equipment

pps.

Quote

Things to Consider

•Never assume that a grounding electrode conductor is “dead,” or you may be.


•If there is no current in one of the grounding electrode conductors, this doesn't mean there is no grounding electrode current flowing somewhere in the system. Treat all grounding electrode connection points individually.


•Always assume the grounding electrode conductor is “hot,” and treat it as such, until proven otherwise.


•Even though the system you're working on may be functioning correctly, and have a good neutral, a dangerous condition may still exist if there is an open neutral in a neighboring building.


•Even if the main circuit breaker in the building you're working in is open, as long as the neutral provides a path for that imbalanced current, current can be flowing up through your grounding electrodes, and back through your neutral.


•Current can come into the system you're working on from a local faulty system.


•The neutral in the building you're working on was sized for its own service, not for additional current from another service. If a neighboring building has an open or faulty neutral, it may affect the system you're working on.

plumbers should plumb

electricians should wire

NOTHING SHOULD BE CHANGED/DISCONNECTED W/O CAREFULL CONSIDERATION

==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638



Edited 1 times.

At least 3 times, I would have my "TicTracer" turned on and go by something and it would go ballistic because the shell was energized. In every case, conditions were such that the people could not touch a "ground" and the device at the same time. The first was mobile home/trailer and the entire shell was energized. BEcause they had a wooden porch to go into it, they were insulated from the ground. The second was a home's refrigerator and its shell was also energized, but it was far enough away from the range and sink that they could not touch both of them at the same time. The third was a restauant's refrigerator/freezer which was also energized because someone wired the plug backwards and connected the "hot" wire to the neutral circuit, which also was connected to the outside shell of the box.

A long time ago I was an apprentice plumber helping to repipe some fairly new type K (thickest) copper piping at the Van Nuys Court House that had been degrading and having leaks.

Per instructions I was about to cut the main copper supply to the court building and when I say "cut" I mean saw the 2" - 4" copper pipe (I can't recall the size, we used to work on much larger copper piping) where IF there was current or grounding going through it I would be disconnecting that. I hadn't considered electrical at all and neither had the journeyman plumbers that I was working under.

Fortunately a very sharp electrician who had been assigned to and had been researching if electricity issues had anything to do with the poor copper performance had discovered the main cause of the copper being eaten ("grounding problem" and stopped me. He told me that IF I had cut that pipe where I had (out in the open, not underground in dirt) I might have been electrocuted.

Whether he was correct or not the supervisor of the job told me to stop (which he didn't have to tell me as there was no way I was going to cut the pipe after that).

That electrician and his crew fixed whatever needed fixing and then he gave the ok to cut the pipe.

Fortunately thanks to that electrician I'm here many years later to share my experience with you.

In Chicago, working on old buildings we learned NEVER to disconnect a union and separate the pipes with our hands. It helped me when I went to replace a water heater. When I unscrewed the cold water union nut, I hit the union with my wrench and a spark jumped across the gap. I told the lady that she might have an electrical problem. She asked me if that was why all the bulbs in the house burned out and the TV was smoking? everything in the house had gone to 240v power.



Edited 1 times.

[www.thecircuitdetective.com]

if the plumbing becomes 'charged' there IS a fault with the electrical ground system or the utilities neutral connection

GET IT FIXED

==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

I think that a much better option is to have a seperate ground for the plumbing.

Separate, or not, the important thing is that it be "continuous". Many DIYers will replace a metal pipe with PEX without any consideration as to whether that compromises the "grounding' of the system. When they do that even a "separate" ground is useless.

good practice dictates ONE 'house' ground from the service panel (may have multiple 'stakes' but ONE wire)

the breaker / fuse panel is grounded directly to the service panel ground lugs

all else (including the neutral 'leg') is BONDED to said ground, not individually 'staked'



==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

If a diyer or professional replaces metallic pipe with nonmetallic, the continuous circuit through the house is irrelevant. If there are problems with the electrical, they need an electrician to fix the problem, not a plumber to bond the plumbing to help mask it.

DOH

however, the bonding of metallic piping to ground circuit is a NEC requirement

if done improperly (or tampered with) it becomes dangerous


to repeat:

plumbers plumb
electricians wire

CAVEAT EMPTOR



==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

Does the code say you must use the ground provided by the electrician?

quote; If there are problems with the electrical, they need an electrician to fix the problem,

WHO said there was a problem with the electrical. I am just stating the obvious in case something DOES go wrong in the house. THEN they need an electician, if they are not seriously injured already, if they, a plumber, or someone did NOT maintain the grounding integrity.

Why wouldn't you? Or do you WANT the plumber to install the grounding system? Which you just said he should NOT do it.



Edited 1 times.

Paul48,

You must BOND the metallic piping to the NEC required ground system.

NOT install an ADDITIONAL ground system.

The plumbing should not BE the ground, but is bonded TO the ground.

(just like the stove should not BE the ground, but must connect TO the ground)



to repeat:

plumbers plumb
electricians wire

==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638



Edited 3 times.