I am NOT perfect, I merely try

My 'issue' with the 'modern' plastic is comparable to the 'modern' electrical 'junk'.

Once upon a time (and still among us in smaller numbers) existed skilled tradesmen who took care and pride and understood how and why things 'went together'.

When the mfgrs. started making lower quality products with virtually no margin for error they could 'compensate' and still assemble a decent job.

eg. 'newer' electric receptacles with 'spring loaded' direct wire inserts - the real electricians used the screw terminals instead - the 'shoemakers' continued using the direct wire inserts as they would overtorque the screws on the (now cheaper) plastic and snap the receptacle ~ no margin for error

eg. plastic shanks on fixtures - same scenario - except that there is no circuit breaker to protect the end user ~ again, no margin for error

To make it worse, since the new stuff does not require accurate measuring or 'specialty tools' the need for actual tradesmen has declined, opening the door to DIYs and 'never stop improving' and you, too, can have 5 bedrooms and 3.5 baths ~ instead of 1 or1.5 baths lasting 30-40 years before remodeling is necessary.

If one 'buys into' {never stop improving} as opposed to build it once and use it a lifetime then one must accept the resulting lifestyle of flooding and replacement as a routine lifestyle.

...rant over


ps. I recently (10 yrs. ago) bought a 1991 3 BR / 2 bath 'stick built' home in coastal S.C. ~ I juuuuust finished bringing it up to minimum good practice standards.
cost me almost 1000 hours of labor and about $3000 material

If built originally to good practice as opposed to minimum code I 'guesstimate' it would have been an additional $1500 total INCLUDING labor ~ about 1-2% of sale price more to have it done right


pps. This is what 'got me going':

The dishwasher overflowed (no sweat, stuff happens).

Removed 22 year old 'top-o-the-line' domestic brand - rather, TRIED to remove and found that the cabinets and the dish washer had been set and installed onto the subfloor BEFORE the (multiple layers) of finished floor were installed AROUND them resulting a) trapping the dish washer AND b) hiding the slow leak and destroying the cabinets and the sub floor.

Never thought to inspect cabinet installation as the kitchen had a brand new Corian counter top when I bought.

Since the labor used to install the finished flooring was so cheap (imported labor) it was cost effective for the contractor to cut around all the cabinets to save money on material.

The above installation is code compliant but surely not good practice.

However, since one 'never stops improving', what is the issue to the modern consumer who knows not better 'good practice' workmanship?

for the novices among us:

best practice: floor first then cabinets on legs for cleaning and small leak visibility

good practice: floor first then cabinets

code: set cabinets on subfloor and install finished floor AROUND them

pps. a dishwasher 'may' be shoehorned into position by removing the insulation batting if 1/4 ply and vinyl were used for flooring with standard cabinets on the subfloor, but, ? will the dishwasher be 'pulled' and the old flooring removed when new flooring is installed ? ~ you think so, just look at the abortions re: toilets (which should have been set onto 40-60 year tile in the first place)


enough - I'm sure y'all get my point

==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

Your kitchen was just as likely remodeled by a licensed contractor, and the homeowner was probably overcharged for what they thought was a quality job. It is much more than a DIYer problem. More often than not, if the homeowner has not taken the time to educate themselves about the job at hand, they will get sub-standard results. Whether they are doing the job or have hired a licensed professional. If you want to amuse yourself, go tour some model homes in new sub-divisions. Look at the "inspected" quality, constructed by licensed contractors. I'll go you one better....Go look at the quality in some "custom" homes. Then, re: the existence of the big box stores....which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Keep it coming, Bern. Don't jump off the soapbox yet. Just installed a dishwasher Friday under conditions exactly described by you-- collapse the legs (threaded), shoehorn it under the countertop into position, and then expand the height once in place.

Maybe the motto should be: NEVER STOP IMPROVISING.

Even professionals can improvise (like your recent dishwasher install) and there is nothing wrong with adapting your method to the situation, but when people start cutting corners, that is when the problems happen. The house I bought recently had an extremely lazy contractor. They laid laminate down over top of the existing flooring and didn't pull the baseboard first.. They just added quarter round on top of the edges. You can see how bad it is at every doorframe, but at least they pulled the fridge and went under that.

About 5 years ago, we re-financed the house and took some equity out. I decided to hire a GC to remodel the downstairs bath. I wanted it gutted,and he said it would take 7 working days. I informed him there was mold, and his guys needed to wear respirators while gutting. I also told him it was plaster walls, and nothing would be level, plumb, or 16 on-center. They showed up, and gutted it with dust masks on. The next 2 days they were off....sick.They showed up again, and I got the call at work...."the framing is bad..I need to get more money for this"..he didn't get any more money. I told him I wanted 1/2" Durrock on the floor...He used 1/4" HardeeBacker, which he continued under the tub. The finished floor is now 3/8" lower than the kitchen.I told him to make sure the tile guy laid out his tile well. I wanted no slivers of tile in corners. I came home to find the bathroom window, trimmed 4" on one side, and 1" on the other. He explained that this was so the tile guy wouldn't wind up with a sliver on one end. He said he'd fix it, then called me at work the next morning saying he did'nt want to change it. I stood, screaming in the middle of the warehouse, that if he didn't I'd kill him. So...he fixed it. I had the licensed electricians in to do the wiring, and install a water-proof fixture in the shower. They failed to account for the tile on the walls when they set the depth of their boxes. They put a step ladder in the tub, and used it and the shower rough to stand on, to install the light fixture. They left it facing the bottom of the tub, but did replace it when I insisted.When I looked in the crawl-space, at the plumbing (installed by a licensed plumber), I noticed the 6 foot line from the toilet to the stack was very close to dead-level.He said it was code minimum, which didn't make sense to me, considering the last foot was turned down 45*. This bathroom took 6 weeks and it's now shot. Never Stop Improving!

MY recent dishwasher install involved / led to:


'Tear out' of all finished floor in kitchen including 1/4" plywood for vinyl floor.

Repair of all kitchen cabinet bases with 3/4" oak 'overlay' and stained in place.

Screw all subfloor in house down.

Installing 'Br*ce' brand (by Arm*****g) 3/4" solid oak 'gunmetal' narrow plank flooring laid continuous throughout house using 2" power driven staples every 4-6" including kitchen and dishwasher area.

The floor is CONTINUOUS under the fridge, stove, d/w and cabinets along the stove wall and continues throughout the house.

Notch out Corian top with hand router, using jig, EXCACTLY 3/8" ~ standard cabinets allow 3/8" clearance ~ leaving me with a snug direct slide in of d/w.

There is now a "DWIP" pan installed under the d/w ~ this is a shallow plastic THREE sided pan installed with open side into kitchen which will allow any d/w leak to become IMMEDIATELY visible WHILE IT IS SMALL ~ pan is virtually invisible after install



The mfg. website specifies leaving min. 3/8" around ALL edges of flooring to allow for its own as well as the subfloor's expansion and contraction ~ therefor ~ 3/4" quarter round molding was installed except in a few 'cosmetic' dimensional areas where the baseboard was pulled and replaced. The 1/4 round was very well installed and caulked (using Alexis water based allowing for damp sponge cleaning) and looks very very nice ~ if done well it actually accentuates the job, if done poorly with 1/2x3/4 looks like crap.

My house is now complete

==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638



Edited 2 times.

Paul48 (CT),

You have my condolences

and

my understanding.

You have made my point.

==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

I've spent a good part of my life, learning "stuff", I really didn't want to learn. But, either I was too broke to pay someone else, or, when I did pay someone else, they screwed it up. Now don't get me started on engineers, or doctors. If it weren't for the incompetence we deal with every day, we'd probably live to 150.

I agree.

My health plan is:

If I break or tear something - fix it.

If I get really sick - I shall die.

Simple and fool-proof (unless I become incompetent) - if so - ? will I care ?


Thanx for stopping by, I think we have disposed of the horse's carcass.

==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

Quote

Keep it coming, Bern. Don't jump off the soapbox yet. Just installed a dishwasher Friday under conditions exactly described by you-- collapse the legs (threaded), shoehorn it under the countertop into position, and then expand the height once in place.

? did you inform the h/o as to the 'wrongness' of the situation ?

they would have no other way of knowing about the shoddy work in their homes as they are accustomed to 'never stop improving'

==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

Try this one on for size:

Dishwasher on subfloor.

Vinyl floor.

H/O has ceramic tile installed / 3/8 backer board - 1/8 mortar - 1/4 tile AROUND d/w & cabs. $2,800

Looks real nice.

H/O then has Granite countertop with ROLLED lip installed - one piece ELL shape. $9,500

Looks even nicer.

Decides to replace d/w with newer 'shiny' model. $995

'Plumber' shoehorns into place.

Now it REALLY looks nice.

Resulting installation abortion ends up costing H/O $32,000 in water damage. repairs, basically a kitchen remodel. (plus a new counter top due to the crack in the old one from the shoehorn)

All because no 'plumber' spoke up and told the H/O what good practice was.

However, the original builder did make an extra $150 by saving kitchen flooring.

Many H/Os today will actually say: "That's what the contractor gave me." with a shrug


My compadres need to grow some cajones and SPEAK UP and refuse to perform this substandard work even if such refusal costs them a few bucks.

OH NO, not getting together and forming an .....

My bosses always had the option of replacing me with another worker, but, could not touch me for refusing to perform 'shlock work' as my replacement (per agreement/contract) would ALSO come from an .....

E Pluribus Unum ~ From Many, ONE

==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638



Edited 2 times.

I am sorry, all of you guys experiences, added together, won't even come close to mine.

I fired four plumbers - all licensed - before finding plbg.com and decided that learning to do things myself, is better than hiring a pro who takes no pride in his work.

You guys have seen NOTHING!

...and leave engineers alone Paul, they are the best!

Toot-Toot

Every field has pros and hacks, same as doctors. Unfortunately, without a standardized comprehensive database where everyone is required to register and compliments and complaints are all logged into that same site, we won't have the transparency that is ideal. If at some point something like this can be established and independent mediators could handle conflict resolution, the quality would rise above the minimum standards everywhere (ideally).

"... They laid laminate down over top of the existing flooring and didn't pull the baseboard first.. They just added quarter round on top of the edges...

I see this all the time. It really looks ridiculous when the new flooring is 3/4" plank and all that is visible of the standard baseboard is 1 1/2" with quarter round up against that.....

If it wasn't such cheap junk I would have already pulled it and relaid it properly and just added some flooring to make up the difference…

m & m,

Lowes will not permit it's 'subs' to remove ANY roll type flooring regardless of date(s).

I did mine and the 1/4 ply myself.

All 40 lbs. of nails virtually hand pulled one at a time.

It would be virtually unaffordable to 'have it done'.



==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

I remember my first rude awakening how bad contractors can be.

Hired a demo contractor to gut my house, need to take down all finished walls and ceilings, sheetrock, tiles, and all carpets, removal and disposal. Signed a contract, and three days into the demo I got a call, so I went to the property. Contractor said the tile substrate was too thick. He thought it's green board or hardibacker behind the tiles, but no, those were the old style manually floated mud and it's like 2" thick, so he wanted more money. To me it seems like he should have taken that into account, he was encouraged to probe or drill for his estimates, but being a nice guy that I am, I agreed to an additional $3000 for the demo. A week later at the end of the job, while I walked the job with him, I saw nails, screws and staples every 8" or so on all the wall studs, and ceiling furring strips. I asked him how come the nails and screws were not removed? He said my contract only called for removal of finished surfaces, but says nothing about fasteners. He further said when I install new sheetrock, whoever I hire could easily pound the nails back in and that's usually how it's handled.

When I renovate one of the bathrooms, I wanted to move the door over about 30". However where I needed the new door, is an existing copper supply manifold for the bath. I hired a plumber to come move the manifold for about 16". Slab has been cut, soil excavated, everything exposed. The new location is closer, not farther, meaning they can simply introduce a bend of the soft copper pipe towards the new location and solder a few couplings. The very experience plumber decided to have an apprentice do it instead and left the job, saying "call me if you have questions". The apprentice did his thing, then put sleeves over the pipes, backfilled the soil, and I paid him. The next day, on closer inspection, instead of three cold lines coming up from the floor, and two hot lines, I see two cold and three hot. One of the cold has been combined into the hot manifold. Then when I excavated the lines again to expose them, I noticed he kinked the pipes during the bending, and that's why he sleeved it and backfilled when I asked them not to. Oh the plumbing inspector failed me, but said his dad is a master plumber and if I hired his dad he is sure I will pass. His dad charged me $800 to solder four hose bibs, I think I posted pics here and everyone said it's a total rip off, and his dad can't even speak English.

Oh there was this drain cleaner who I hired to snake one line, 9' into the toilet drain his snake got stuck and won't pull out. Finally he cut the cable and left it in the pipe. Told me my line has collapsed and that's why the snake head won't come back. I later cut the slab, dug down and found a perfectly fine CI line. The head was stuck inside a 90 elbow.

and the AC tech who replaced my air handler in the attic, decided to cut the chords on two of my roof trusses in order to put in the replacement unit, when I told him to take careful measurement since it is tight up there.

Never stop improvement, the problem is the complete erosion of pride in workmanship.



Edited 1 times.

There was one plumbing company that took a different twist that I had to admire. He got trucks that looked completely different from every other company, worked in a limited area, and charges 3-4 times what every other company does for the 'same' job. Sounds like a recipe for disaster until you talk to his customers. Every one of his technicians is always clean and neat, the dispatcher tells the customer who is coming and when, and when they get to the job they take the extra time to preserve their clients' houses. They wear booties, cover all work surfaces so they don't get damaged or splattered, and if something does make a mess, they clean it up. All their prices are specified up front, and they honor those prices, even if something doesn't go as planned. Excavations are a different matter, as are some miscellaneous tasks, but most jobs are a set price, and customers will wait for days even with main line backups, or more for all but emergencies. The only complaint that I ever heard about them was the high prices- but some people refused to use anyone else after that, in the same breath.

quote: eg. 'newer' electric receptacles with 'spring loaded' direct wire inserts - the real electricians used the screw terminals instead - the 'shoemakers' continued using the direct wire inserts as they would overtorque the screws on the (now cheaper) plastic and snap the receptacle ~ no margin for error

I disagree. The reason for "back-stab" receptacles and switches is NOT because of over-tourqueing screws and thus breaking the device. It's because it can shave 5 seconds off the time it takes to connect each conductor. If someone bids on a big electrical job, their subs can cram more wire in less time by using the back stabs vs. bending, hooking and screwing the conductors on.

I almost got electrocuted installing a disposal. The HO had a licenced electrician put in the switch and left a pigtail under the sink. I made sure the switch was off, cut into the romex to trim the excess, and BOOM! sparks flew. Turns out the electrician (with an apprentice) re-used an old switch that had the back-stab conductors cut off the back instead of rpl the switch. When he shoved the switch into the box, that little protruding bit of copper sticking out the back bit into a hot wire.

To me, "Never Stop Improving" means:
Never Stop Learning.
Never Stop Doing Your Best.

P.S. Not everybody can afford to do several thousand $$$ of new flooring, cabinet and trim work to replace a $600 dishwasher. Just my 2 cents.

you missed my point

the damage done by the improperly dishwasher forced me to repair cabinets, repair sub floor, and install new flooring PROPERLY so the new dishwasher could be PROPERLY installed

I just felt, since the carpeting was due for replacement anyway, just finish the whole house

The work in the kitchen was REQUIRED because of the original shoddy install

thank you for making my point re: affordability of building the mcmansion PROPERLY

ps. the 'older/better' back wire receptacles tightened the back wire holes using the terminal screws - the wires were NOT held in place by spring tension - you could NOT 'stab and go' - nor could you leave the screws 'sticking out' as they were still required for the connection


aaaah - there goes the concept of skilled trades AGAIN

==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

bernabeu:

"nor could you leave the screws 'sticking out' as they were still required for the connection "

yes you could. I have removed a few with the screws not tightened. Really puzzling, to wind the conductors around the screws but not tighten it, instead, they put electrical tape over it a couple of rounds. Licensed electricians I am talking about.



Edited 1 times.

sum,

you could not back wire them unless you tightened the screws

if the screws were not tightened the clamps inside to hold the stripped ends would not tighten

yes, it is possible for NON ELECTRICIANS to not know how to wire a receptacle - even some people who are being paid to wire them

the title does not a tradesman make

this is why I always specify a licensed, insured, AND BONDED plumber



==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

Could you explain bonding as it relates to residential jobs?

the bonding would apply to the plumbing company itself not necessarily the individual job

a large renovation 'should' be independently bonded unless one knows the plumber personally and trusts him implicitly

a performance bond for a $20,000 kitchen remodel would cost the consumer about $150 PROVIDING the General Contractor is found to be bondable

licensed plumber in some (not all) jurisdictions would involve an additional license to the general business license

some states even require the individual worker to be 'certified'

==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638



Edited 1 times.

I try.

Thankfully, did my time in the IBEW. Though, apparently retired early now and playing Mr. Mom at home (yeah, 220, 221, whatever it takes).

So, I try to do things right, even if takes a bit longer. I try to do them SAFELY because it does me no good if I, or my wife, or my kids can't enjoy them. We are fully stocked for safety provisions...and the Mrs is an RN

But then, you move into your new home, and you have lots of work to do. And you start to realize you need a dishwasher. And it will be years before the kitchen remodel gets done. And you end up chucking that dishwasher onto the subfloor behind the 3" of stacked flooring including 2 layers of red carpeting hiding in there, and you die a little inside.



Annnnd then you fail your first inspection anyway



There is sooooooooooooooo much here to be fixed. Between built in the late 60's and stupid homeowner tricks ever since then, the honey-do list should last my lifetime.

psiu,

I feel your pain.

Took me 10 years to fix my S.C. home to acceptable, not necessarily best, practice.

(the plumbing, however, is now good-best practice)

Best of luck.



Retired at last, with TMT on my hands.

==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638



Edited 3 times.

I found myself quite intrigued after my first hearing of the term "planned obsolescence". Firstly the plumber I worked (who I heard this from first) with was impressive as an intellectual; secondly the fancy term and it's nasty intention.

Now I wonder if the "Bad Boxes" really had a sister plan in place at or before their birth... planned disaster for additional future profit.

Win/Win for them... cheap and unskilled/uncaring labor along with the promise of the double dip profits.

Our fun New and Improving? America... If you are not enjoying the decay it could well be that you are not one of the criminals taking advantage of the planned entropy.



Edited 1 times.

I knew a guy that worked in the quality control/ investigative department of a battery manufacturing plant. Long story short, a bunch of engineers got in hot water because a car battery didn't fail 2 months after the warranty expired on it. It lasted ~22 years. They were told that screw ups like that would put everyone out of work, don't let it happen anymore.