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Author:
sum (FL)
I have a kitchen line clog in my rental house - still dealing with it, see details in this thread.
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Anyways during the investigation by plumber #1, he said my house is not on sewer, but on septic. He based his opinion on the fact that every house on that street has a cleanout in the front yard facing the street, where as my house has no front cleanout, but there is one in the backyard, heading deeper into the backyard.
So while I was trying to resolve the clog in the kitchen line, I am also trying to figure out where my main line is.
Here are some known facts.
(1) House is old, 1955. Absolutely no doubt it WAS on septic. My kitchen and two baths, the elbow coming out of the walls, are copper drain lines. The vents protruding out of the roof, all cast iron.
(2) Searching online city of Fort Lauderdale's permit database reveals in 2008 a permit applied for, inspection passed, and closed "ABANDON SEPTIC CONNECT TO SEWER". It seems unlikely that it would have passed inspection if that didn't happen. But I didn't see any plans on where the lines are, maybe I will visit the building department on Monday to see if they have plans available. I am not counting on it though.
(3) There is a 4" PVC cleanout in the backyard (not front yard), and when I opened it the direction of the pipe heads towards the backyard. Flushing toilets in both bathrooms showed water coming through that CO. Running the kitchen faucet does NOT show any flow, but that may be because that line is plugged.
(4) Since 2008 there has been a sewer charge on the water bill. I have a hard time believing me and two previous owners have been paying the city if the lines go to a septic.
(5) I bought the house in 2012. Has been tenant occupied since then. I also don't think it's possible for a septic to not need pumping for 2.5 years of constant usage.
So here is a sketch with some annotation over my survey.
The backyard is to the north, the street / man holes are to the south.
The *MAIN* 4" CO is shown, that is PVC, so it's new. To me that line running north is not a big surprise. If there was a septic tank here in the yard, it has to find a path and make some turns back to the street. The question is does it turn left or right.
To the right(east) is a big tree with a serious root radius. I really doubt they would want to excavate through that.
To the left(west) is a patio slab so it had to go around that and I am thinking this may be why the line heads north, may be it makes a westerly turn and back south to go to the street.
Following this thought process, I decided to confirm this.
First, this is a pic from the backyard looking south.
You can see the kitchen garden window, and above that to the left I circled the 1.5" vent on the roof.
Moving west, facing the NW corner, is another picture. Here you can see the kitchen window, but also around the NW corner, you can see the newer washing machine DWV from the car port. That whole assembly was done outside.
My thinking is, if the new main line connecting to the city truly runs past the west, the washing machine drain has to be connected to it, right?
So step 1, I opened the CO on the washing machine drain line, and put a garden hose in it. If the washing machine line makes a turn towards the backyard I should see water flowing through that 4" CO in the backyard. I don't see anything. Washing machine is draining somewhere else.
Step 2, I started digging the bottom of the washing machine line, hoping to see the connection below. I dug about 14" deep below ground and saw a 3" PVC heading west, didn't make a turn left or right, but headed west. Then I ran into a bunch of big roots which makes this challenging. I got as far as 36" from the wall and still I don't see any elbow or wye but it went deeper. Also I dug up a lot of big stones. Then I hit a piece of thick plastic. See the next pic with the annotation. What is this?
I am thinking, is it possible, that this piece of plastic is there to protect a drain field of gravel? That the washing machine drain does not go anywhere, but just down...they dug a big hole filled it with gravel and put a thick piece of plastic over it, then cover with dirt?
Possible?
So long story to ask my question, is this piece of plastic some sort of a cover to a gravel pit? Should I continue to excavate?
Edited 1 times.
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Author:
Doug E. (CA)
looks like a piece of broken plastic yard box. but don't let that distract you from finding the main line.
yes, find a section of horizontal main drain leaving the house. good pics and drawings. good job!
who plumbed the wash machine addition?
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Author:
sum (FL)
Hi Doug. I have no idea who plumbed the washing machine connection. The permit search didn't show anything so it may have been unpermitted work.
What worries me is if this line goes no where but into a pit, then it may be indications that something really funny is going on.
Also do not understand why they chose a 3". I would think you would run a 2" to the main line and use a 3x3x2 wye. The 3" worries me if they used a 3" to increase "storage" in case the drain field overflows.
I'll dig deeper and see.
I will also see if I can chat up some neighbors to see if they remember any digging in the front yard in 2008.
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Author:
hj (AZ)
The cleanout is in the back and the piping heads that way because that is where the septic tank WAS. When it was abandoned the piping was rerouted around the building to connect to the sewer in front. I doubt that there are any drawings of how it was done, but ANY pipe locator can trace its path to the main line from the cleanout.
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Author:
sum (FL)
Was going to dig deeper today but it rained. Sucks!
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Author:
bernabeu (SC)
listen to hj
either
run 100' of 3/8 cable and then use a metal detector (?from Radio Shack?)
or
call a pipe locating co.
==============================================
"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638
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Author:
KCRoto (MO)
From similar houses that I have been to, just looking at the drawing can suggest a lot. It looks like the main sewer line exits the rear of the house, turns west and runs straight toward the fence line. When determining placement of the sewer, think of yourself running a backhoe. What is the easiest path to work in.. That is most likely where it is. You ran the washer and didn't see water in the cleanout- I would expect that.. now open the cleanout on the washer and flush the toilet. You should hear it rumble into the line, and hear water running. At some point you will probably hear it cascade into the city main. Digging up a line a few years after it was replaced is a real pain. Roots just love to follow a nice trench, it isn't nearly as compacted as the rest of the soil. If you need to be exact, a locator is the quickest, and a probe rod is cheaper and faster than digging. Now that the rain has softened the ground, it should take less than 5 minutes to probe the ground and find it.
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Author:
hj (AZ)
quote; use a metal detector (?from Radio Shack?)
2 1/2 to 4 feet deep?
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Author:
m & m (MD)
There is probably a clean out in the front yard at the curb. Buried of course.
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Author:
sum (FL)
What kind of probe rod? Like a rebar?
The front of the property is a 5' wide strip all the way across of crushed gravel, hardened over the years by cars packed there, rain didn't soften anything.
Going to city building services tomorrow to see if they have anything.
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Author:
hj (AZ)
quuoe; s probably a clean out in the front yard at the curb.
"probably" maybe an overstatement. In my 60 years in the trades, I have seen MAYBE a half dozen homes which had curb cleanouts, and they were installed by the owners when they had a problem there.
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Author:
bernabeu (SC)
hj,
don't know exactly what it is called, but, the snake can be 'energized' by some type of electrical 'gizmno' which then can be located by the 'locator'
helped an electrician with a similar job once - long long ago
DUH (2 hours later)
the 'charging' device is called a 'signal generator' and the 'detector' a receiver
however
a receiver capable of 2-3 feet of dirt will be EXPENSIVE for a (?one time?) use
therefor either:
use the mechanical probe
or
hire a locating co. who have said receiver
==============================================
"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638
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Author:
sum (FL)
Called the city this morning, asked them if they would have any location information of my outside line and cleanout locations, they said I have to go into the office to ask.
Drove to the city's building services, asked the same question, they told me they don't have those information. LOL, why didn't they tell me over the phone? They didn't need to look it up, they knew they had nothing. I showed them the permit pulled by last owner in 2008 for the septic to sewer connection, was there a sketch? Something that can show me where the line and COs are? Nope.
So I asked what information do you have? Any old plans, old records? I got them to pull up some microfiche. Saw a very old faded plan, showing the main line exits the house in the back to the septic tank, but very interesting is I saw an annotation from the kitchen line with an arrow "TO SEPTIC". So the kitchen line goes to the septic, independent of the line for the rest of the house. Hmmm...
Immediately I was thinking, could the kitchen line be still hooked up to the septic, and the main line goes to the street?
Then I called public works who says they can come out to mark the sewer laterals and COs.
In the afternoon the city came and a guy came out with a metal detector and he was looking for the CO. He was just kicking the grass around. I asked him what the metal detector is for, he said it is a metal disc that they put on the lateral, but once the connection is made, the disc is removed. So a properly connected sewer line will not detect the disc, but if the connection hasn't been made, the disc will still be there.
The metal detector beeped and he said the disc's down there. So I haven't been hooked up. I showed him the permit and the inspection records, it passed final inspection, is it possible it didn't get hooked up? He said well...
I then saw my neighbors CO on the driveway, and I asked to borrow his metal detector. I walked over to my neighbor's driveway and it beeped too. So why is there a CO here to connect the line to the city and still indicates a disc down there? He said sometimes the installer removes the disc and throw them right back into the pit before they backfilled. He suggests I use brass CO cover next time so I can find it again with metal detectors.
So after all this time, I still can't find my PVC CO.
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Author:
KCRoto (MO)
I stand by my original thesis.
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Author:
sum (FL)
KCRoto I now think the line is to the east. In other words, the line exits north of the house, then the CO, then the kitchen line connects to it (this was confirmed by opening that CO during snaking operation and I can hear the thumping, unfortunately I couldn't hear where it turns).
After that I think it turns right/east. This is from three other pieces of information.
First, I did talk to someone at public works, and they said they do have what they called a "sewer atlas". I got an email after I got home tonight and it shows two laterals kind of side by side with my neighbor to the east, and my west side neighbor has it on their west side of the property, side by side to their west side neighbor.
Second, I dug that washing machine drain line, expecting it to tie into a main line going past. I never saw a wye, it got deeper. At 36" deep, I gave up, the original problem - the kitchen line - got unclogged, so I backfilled the hole for now, but I am now thinking it is a gravel pit.
Oh, the plumber that came by, was also curious which way the main line from the back turns. He has a T-handle probe like your picture. He used it to trace it but after pushing down into the dirt for a dozen of holes, he said he is not sure where it goes, most of the time the probe stopped and we were like "does this sound like plastic or a piece of coral rock?" and after a while he gave up and said I paid him to unclog the kitchen drain so that's what he is going to do and not worry about which way my main line goes.
Finally, with the washing machine line CO opened, I cannot hear water going by when toilet is flushed or faucet is on in the house. With the main CO open in the back of the house, I cannot hear the washing machine water run by as I stick a garden hose down the washing machine drain.
So from here on out, I think I have two pending tasks, but there is no big urgency.
#1 - Locate my cleanout cover on the east side. I looked pretty hard but can't figure it out. Yes I know I can pay someone $500 to come do the locate, but I am thinking it makes more sense to wait till I have a main line blockage to do it, then I will be cleaning/jetting and location at the same time, instead of locating for locating's sake.
#2 - I need to connect the washing machine on the west side to sewer. It's been going into a pit for I don't know how long. City permit was pulled to abandon septic and connect to sewer in 2008, but I do not see a permit pulled for the washing machine drain. If I do run a 2" line from the washing machine back to the main line in the back, I would be passing by the kitchen.
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Author:
KCRoto (MO)
At least it is narrowed down a bit for now. I would doubt that you have another cleanout on the line since you have one outside the house already.
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Author:
sum (FL)
The public works guy who came out said there should be a CO by the property line as they would not have passed the final inspection without one, but, "who knows". He also said I didn't connect to the sewer because the "metal disc" is there, then he changed his tune and said probably they took the disc off and threw it into the trench when they backfilled.
So finally he said "ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE" and left. LOL.
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