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Author:
CLS (PA)
We are renovating an apt that we have not moved into yet. In May of this year, prior to renovation, the 6 year old Toto toilet had a malfunction. the coupler connecting the water supply on the outside of the toilet broke and there was major flooding. Luckily we had not begun our renovation but it stalled it for several months as the insurance companies for both the condo assoc and ours dealt with this. Water was turned off.
Once our GC started renovations in September, at some point, the toilet was repaired. However they discovered leaks in the mounting seal and the water was turned off until further repair. Last week the repair was done, the plumber tested the toilet, turned the water back on and he left. The plumber left the job leaving the lid off the toilet tank, which was later deemed an "oversight". On October 30, to our astonishment, another major flooding occurred. When it was discovered , the filltube had popped off and water was spurting powerfully and high. By the time restoration services arrived, the super and our site manager had vacuumed 100 gallons of water from the apt.
Now I am asking if the plumber can be held liable for his oversight on leaving the lid off the toilet? We feel the this catastrophe could have been eliminated or at least alleviated by the tank lid being on.
We are not speculating-- at this point-- that the plumber may have been responsible in the course of the repair for weakening the filltube attachment that broke off on a 6 year old expensive TOTO toilet.
FYI-- the 2 other TOTO toilets in the apt, of the same age, seem to be in perfect condition.
I appreciate anyone that can give me insight on this matter. Thank you.
I attach the explanation from the site manager:
My understanding is that the 1st time the supply line that comes out of the wall and feeds the toilet was the culprit. I was not there for the 1st incident but this is my understanding. The plumber then replaced the line. While replacing this line, we discovered two minor leaks in the mounting trap that connects the base of the toilet to the soil line in the floor. To address this, we ordered and installed a new mounting trap which addressed the wax seal and the gasket to the toilet base. The plumber removed the toilet in one piece to replace the mounting trap. This I know because I watched him remove it myself. The water was turned on and the toilet functioned properly after these repairs. The 2nd time the flooding came from inside the toilet tank. The valve that not only supplies the tank with water but also acts as the float or fill shutoff was the piece that failed. This piece is inside the tank and independent of the fixes performed the 1st time which were at the supply line from the wall and the mount underneath the base. In my opinion the 1st time the main issue was on the outside, and the 2nd was on the inside. I will certainly leave the toilet in place and have reached out to another plumbing company to come and diagnose the failure and pressure test the line. The lid not being on in my opinion is a simple oversight. The lid has been off since the 1st incident, however, would have had to been removed anyway when the toilet was removed to replace the mounting trap as to not have it fall off and break. It would have also been off to make sure that the fill was working correctly and that the float was shutting off the fill correctly. Again, after these repairs, the water was on and the toilet was functioning properly.
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Author:
hj (AZ)
The refill tube is NOT held in position by the tank lid. When we test toilets we do it with the tank lid off and we do NOT cause flooding when we do it. HOWEVER, the tube should have been secured to the overflow pipe SOMEHOW, and that "somehow" varies with the manufacturers.
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Author:
CLS (PA)
Thank you for your comment.
The fill valve broke at the base and "blew off" from the water supply. The power of the water was such that within a couple of hours the 100+ gallons of water had spurted out.
I thought that the water would have been contained within the tank and gone to overflow tube if tank lid was on?
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Author:
KCRoto (MO)
If the Lid had been on, the force of the fill valve breaking off and shooting up would have most likely knocked it off anyhow. Those lids only rest in position, and if they aren't positioned correctly, they can easily slide off with the slightest bump. Putting the tank lid on would be like closing the garage door before driving through it.
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Author:
CLS (PA)
OK. So in your experience, the lid would not have been enough to deter the water from gushing out. Then let me ask you about the failure itself. Anything you know that can cause this? This is a G max fill valve I believe. The toilet was in a guest bedroom and not regularly used. Since the first incident in May, water was off until recently when the 2nd repair was done--as i mentioned there are 2 other toilets of same type and age in apt that are fine.
And since there were 2 "exploded" items with that toilet-- In May the water supply connection on outside and in October the fill valve on inside, could water pressure be an issue? Again there are 2 full baths on that level that are fine.
Thank you.
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Author:
bernabeu (SC)
? why would you purchase an expensive fixture having a pressurized plumbing valve with a plastic 'shank' ?
? when the flexible connector was installed / replaced the (? metal ?) connection to the plastic 'shank' may, or may not, have been over tightened ?
? who installed the fixtures ?
? an actual licensed bonded insured plumber ?
? using best/good practice ?
or
? a 'handyman' using vinyl/pex tubing instead of rigid connectors ?
ps. the braided stainless steel 'mesh' merely covers a vinyl tube
pps. once upon a time in a land far far away: plumbing was a skilled trade
pps. you, as the owner, are the actual builder and responsible party ~ any other is a 'sub' to YOU
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"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638
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Author:
KCRoto (MO)
why the valve failed is purely speculation. The most reasonable explanation is that someone damaged the valve, but when, where, why, and how are and will remain to be unknown. The pressure alone would not have caused the fill valve to explode, it would have leaked through the seal inside the tank first. Throwing around blame won't help anyone at this point because everyone can argue that it wasn't their fault; it also isn't a constructive use of anyone's time either. It could have been a combination of several different things, but nobody will ever know. If the damage had been apparent, it would have been spraying immediately when the water was on.
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Author:
CLS (PA)
Thank you. the toilet came with the apt which was built in 2008. We bought it Dec of 2013 and have not moved in yet. The original installer was the plumbing contractor that was used by the builder in 2008. They used PVC connectors. Since this happened we will be replacing all the water supply connectors. The water supply on the TOTO toilets is well hidden I guess for design purposes. It is hard to get to. There is an indentation in the back of the base where the line goes in. Our plumber is a sub and works for the GC that we hired for the renovation.
Everyone working is licensed, insured etc. This is in a condominium building in downtown Phila.
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Author:
bernabeu (SC)
Quote
...the coupler connecting the water supply on the outside of the toilet broke and there was major flooding.
...they discovered leaks in the mounting sea...
...plumber left the job leaving the lid off the toilet tank...
...the filltube had popped off and water was spurting powerfully and high...
Yep, sounds like good / best practice was followed
==============================================
"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638
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Author:
bernabeu (SC)
ps.
My Ka-Ka don't stink.
AND
My joints don't leak.
==============================================
"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638
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Author:
CLS (PA)
why the valve failed is purely speculation. The most reasonable explanation is that someone damaged the valve, but when, where, why, and how are and will remain to be unknown. The pressure alone would not have caused the fill valve to explode, it would have leaked through the seal inside the tank first. Throwing around blame won't help anyone at this point because everyone can argue that it wasn't their fault; it also isn't a constructive use of anyone's time either. It could have been a combination of several different things, but nobody will ever know. If the damage had been apparent, it would have been spraying immediately when the water was on.
CLS-- I agree. It is just this is the 2nd "freak" accident to happen with this toilet. Once before we had any workers in there, and now this time, right after a repair.
The engineered wood floor will probably not survive this flooding and that is a major item to replace on top of everything else. Thus the stakes are high. So of course we want to investigate to a certain extent and if there is a responsible party or at least a reason that good minds can agree on, we can figure out what to do from there... Thank you for your helpful comments. I appreciate it.
Edited 1 times.
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Author:
hj (AZ)
I have only seen that happen two times, and once it was because the user had adjusted the water level improperly and had not reinstalled the "lock" properly. The lid probably would have kept the top on, but whether the overflow would have been able to prevent the water from flooding is debatable because the water would be flowing faster than it was designed for.
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Author:
bernabeu (SC)
DITTO hj re: the 'locking collar' on the 400 height adjustment (not the float water level)
definite possibility, but, no way to find out now
==============================================
"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638
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Author:
hj (AZ)
You have to understand that what Bernabeau writes is HIS opinion, and not necessarily how the majority of contractors do it. But, we do NOT have the problems he tells about when we DO do it our way.
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Author:
CLS (PA)
Thank you for sharing your knowledge. It is greatly appreciated.
Edited 1 times.
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Author:
mr leak (CA)
If you think water pressure inside a toilet flush fill valve will blast off the toilet tank lid then you need some corses in practacality
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Author:
KCRoto (MO)
Ever seen a rocket made from a soda bottle launched with an air compressor and water? Don't make me bust out a calculator on you.
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Author:
CLS (PA)
here is another question. Suppose we could not find (beyond a reasonable doubt) a direct connection with the broken fill valve and the plumber's work. Since he left the tank lid off when he finished the job, does he have any responsibility for the damage that ensued? If the lid had been on, presumably there would have been more water directed back in the overflow tube, the tank and toilet, less water spurting out and ultimately less damage to the downstair floors. (The flooding happened within the space of 2.5 hours before it was discovered.)
Thoughts? Thank you.
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Author:
KCRoto (MO)
Contact an attorney if you can't get past it and let a judge determine the what ifs and maybes.
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Author:
hi (TX)
Please check the water pressure at your house. If it is too high then this is one of the major causes of this accident. you can buy a water pressure valve at big box and put on the garden hose bib outside your house (if it is not freezing outside of course) Post back with your water pressure. Thank you and good luck.
==
Lazy hand:
[www.plumbingsupply.com]
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