Scratching my head on why this kitchen drain clogs so often.

Tenants moved in June 2014 and so far I have been there four times to unclog a backed up kitchen sink.

Last tenant was at the property for 16 months, not a single call.

4 times in 5 months suggests a deeper problem. Either there is a problem with the line or there is a problem with what they put down the drain.

Standard set up double sink, left side has a disposer. One time the clog was in the disposer outlet line before the baffle tee, was a ball of seaweed looking stuff in there.

The first time it clogged they told me they empty their salad plates into the disposer, sometimes only half eaten. So crotons, salad dressing, lettuce, olives, beans all gets poured in. Last time I think it was a pot of soup, may be minestrone. As the sink was backed up so bad there is basically two inches of minestrone soup in the bowl when I got there.

Here are some pictures of the drain under the sink.

1-1/2" tubular, behind the wall is 1-1/2" copper trap arm. I think (not 100% sure) the vent is cast iron.







Here is a picture of the kitchen. You can see the sink cabinet. To the right up above you can see a piece of the vent pipe protruding out of the wall. Not exactly sure why there is an offset there. So from the wall connection to the location of that vent pipe is about 24".



Each time it clogged I used a simple 1/4" snake. I disconnect the pipes and feed the snake through. I really don't feel much resistance except when I try to get pass an elbow, and about 24" or so I am guessing I am passed that sanitary tee connection to the stack. I keep pushing ahead and back, and rotate the snake, but I hardly feel anything. When I retrieve the snake sometimes I see a few strands of hair and sometimes what I think may be onion peels or bits of leaves.

It could be that I was only poking a small hole through a clog, which causes the drain to start flowing and then gets clogged again...or they may be putting stuff in there that is causing clogs all the time.

Any way to tell one way or another?

Is there some sort of fluid I can pour down to scour the line?

snaking the line with an electric snake and flowing water is the best way. The best way to prevent the line from clogging in the first place is to either remove the disposal and install a basket strainer, or get new tenants. The problem is the fact that they are using the disposal as a trash can. The trash can should be the first stop, then any remnants can go down the disposal. I suspect that they are not using nearly enough water to carry the waste down and out of the system either.

A 1/4" snake is almost useless, especially if it is in "good" shape. All it will do is punch a small hole through the stoppage, and unless the mass can be dissolved by water flowing through it, it will remain there to trap future "debris" and stop up again.

If the unit is currently vacant, it's a great time to remove the garbage disposal and just plumb in a regular strainer

I used a 1/4" hand snake, and was just rotating it by hand.

I just don't have the skill or feel of a pro to tell what's going on. So I don't know if I cleared the stoppage, just poked a hole through, or pushed something further downstream.

It does feel like every time it clogged, it is in the trap arm, before it connects at the san tee. But it could be right at the san tee too. I only had to feed it 24"-30" to get it to flow again, and the vent pipe is about 24" to the right.

I can't snake it while the water is running because there isn't a CO. I disconnect the connection to the wall to snake. The only way I can think of to allow me to snake and run the faucet is to connect a 1.5" WYE horizontally at the wall connection, use the top of the wye to connect like it is now, and use the branch of the wye roll up 90 degrees for snaking, but that may be angled so much it may be an awkward angle of entry for the snake.

well is there any suggestion on truly cleaning the trap arm completely? I can't tell if I poked a hole in the clog or I truly unclogged it and it's the tenants that are pouring stuff down there they are not supposed to.

When I asked them what's in there they said "nothing it's not supposed to, we know better". Then why is the backed up sink filled with bean soup?

Your "toy" snake is a horizontal line is even less effective, because it just lies on the bottom of the pipe as you insert it.

Try flushing the pipe out using a small Drain Bladder and garden hose.

Drain Bladders are available in several sizes. In your situation involved with various properties they would be good tools to have on hand. Insert at the wall connection a short distance and allow bladder to expand and flush for several minutes. Turn water off and allow bladder to deflate while wrapping towel around drain inlet and garden hose to catch water which may drain back when bladder is depressurized. Move further into drain and flush again. Several times. Actually use the bladder as a "snake" by pushing and pulling, stopping and inflating as much and as far as possible. Success will depend on your pipe configuration, vent pipe connection etc. Locate a five gallon bucket and a few towels just under the drain inlet at the wall. At the very least you should be able to get meaningful flush action accomplished. (Hopefully lasting.)

Drain Bladders are widely available. Harbor Freight has the best price. Some are described on line as better than others. I have never seen any difference of one brand working better than another.

After use, it is a good idea to wipe and flush off the bladder and garden hose outside in the yard with some water mixed with bleach before storage. (Careful not to get bleach water on clothes.) I would also do this to a hand operated snake.

PS. I once saw on a TV court show that the landlord had in the lease that any required drain cleaning would require a $75 cost to the renter. Over the $75 the landlord would absorb. Result --- fewer clogged drains. For larger drain problems renters should be made aware in writing that only human waste and toilet paper goes in the drain, not paper diapers, tampons, etc, etc.

You will have enough room to insert a proper cleanout Y if you swivelled the trap to the front instead of towards the back as it is now. You will end up with a much longer trap arm with plenty of room for a cleanout. The branch of the Y with a cap will point up at a 45* angle and you can keep the water running while you snake the drain.

The speed with which a powered snake spins the cable makes the cable thrash around in the pipe and cleans out the interior of the pipe far better than a hand cranked snake can

I would eliminate that double 90 bend at the disposal. Raise the end waste tee and go straight into the disposal with a flange tailpiece.

Hard to do with a high/low sink configuration.

I just got a call that it is clogged up again.

It was unclogged the day before yesterday.

I have the hand snake, but I guess it is not good enough to really clear the pipe and might have just poked a hole last time.

I have a Ridgid 30" long 3/8" toilet auger. Should I use that and see if it makes a difference? That one I can spin manually better. I am not sure it will go around the 1-1/2" copper elbow at the back of the wall though.

Sometimes, even with the right snake and head, the line will plug up again right after I get it flowing, when the stuff I break up moves down and gets caught at another location.

hj if you look at the kitchen pic up top, the vent line is about 24" to the right of the wall connection.

I am assuming the obstruction is in that copper line before the san tee. So far any snaking has been less than 30" long

If its beyond that, its beyond my tools and skills and I will need to get a plumber to come snake the 2" from the roof.

How can I tell where the blockage is, before or after san tee? I assume I was clearing the copper line and pushing the blockage off the branch of the san tee.

sum:

either:

a) call in a plumber with better equipment

or

b) remove the disposal

or

c) replace the disposal with a dual grind top-o-the-line Insinkerator ~ stainless steel 1 hp ~ will send virtual liquid down the drain (I have an 'antique' model 444)

or

d) back charge the tenants / replace the tenants

==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

That little rod was NOT "pushing" anything. It just burrowed through it and left the main mass stationary.

"Either" only has two options and only one "OR".

Well, new development.

I used a new 3/8" toilet auger, I cut off the plastic bent sleeve at the bottom, so the auger can go straight. Put into the copper drain, which, by the way, I was mistaken, its 1-1/4".

I used the 3/8" auger and manually snaked the line. Reconnected the trap and water backed up in about 20 seconds.

Since I am sure the auger has gone passed the sanitary tee connecting the 1-1/4" copper to the 1-1/2" CI stack, there is nothing more I can do.

Called a plumber. He came out and used a 1/4" snake, the kind with a plastic drum housing, conected to an electric drill. He went in from the same trap adapter about 20', came back with some loose fibers on the snake head, and some black oily ink on the cable. He said the loose fibers look like root, to me it looks like watercress or celery fibers. Reconnected drain and water backed up again just this time took longer.

So in conclusion he said my line has cracked, he cleared it, sand and dirt rushed in and reclogged it, that is why it backed up.

I didn't see sand or dirt on the snake cable.

He recommend I break the concrete wall and run a new line on the outside to tie into existing sewer.

I am not convinced its a broken line.

Ideas?

Call another plumber a drain cleaner to go to the roof and use a 2" cutting head?

Send down a video cam?

Run a new line?

Send bernabeu a plane ticket to Florida?



Edited 1 times.

quote; Called a plumber. He came out and used a 1/4" snake, the kind with a plastic drum housing, conected to an electric drill. He went in from the same trap adapter about 20', came back with some loose fibers on the snake head, and some black oily ink on the cable. He said the loose fibers look like root, to me it looks like watercress or celery fibers. Reconnected drain and water backed up again just this time took longer.

So in conclusion he said my line has cracked, he cleared it, sand and dirt rushed i

That was NOT a plumber, he was one of those jacklegs you have had before. A real plumber would NOT use a 1/4" snake and electric drill nor would anyone connect a kitchen sink to a 1 1/4" line of ANY material. Where do you find these guys? In the back page of the newspaper? Call a REAL PLUMBER who has the proper tools, I would use my 1/2" snake with a flexible head on it.

If you have another trap arm, you can use a saw or grinder to cut a hole in the top of the arm so that you can access the pipe while it is mostly full of water or run water while you cable the line. It sounds like the guy you hired is a crook or a @#$%&, don't use him anymore. Kitchen sink lines get loaded up full of grease, soap and food and make the black gunk that you saw. Stringy food fibers were in there, that wasn't roots. If it was possible for a 1/4 inch line to pull back enough roots to clog the drain, it would have had a squeegee effect on the drain, solving the problem. I use a 3/8 bare cable that I bend as appropriate for the drain and it always worked well for me. I think a bent up bare cable cleans better than a headed cable, because most guys put an undersized head on it anyway and sell the idea that the 'blade' gets the pipe clean. If kitchen sink drains had roots, then maybe, but I won't hold my breath on that one.

hj, the kitchen drain stubout is 1-1/4" copper from I believe 1955. So the copper recessed about 5" or so into the concrete block wall, then makes a right turn inside the concrete wall for about 24" before connecting to what looks to me like a 1-1/2" or 2" CI pipe.



Are you saying I need to hire another plumber? This one was highly recommended by a neighbor. His recommendation to me is to break the concrete wall from the outside, where the stub out is, and runs a new PVC straight out, then put in a studor vent outside, turns down and excavate a trench to tie into the washing machine line about 28' away.

I am still not convinced it is a collapsed pipe.

What is really puzzling is Tuesday it backed up. I put in a 1/4" snake (manual snake) which I understand is not the right tool, but it did clear it, and water ran for a good 5 minutes without backing up before I called it good and left.

Thursday they said it backed up again. So probably yes my 1/4" snake poked a hole in the blockage, or pushed the debris further along. That's is why today I used a 30" toilet auger, and it was able to go in and I turned and turned and I know it went passed the san tee connection to the vertical vent pipe 24" away. His cable went 30' he said and it still backs up.

Should I hire another plumber to go on the roof and with the right size head to snake the drain from there instead of using a smaller head from the 1-1/4" connection inside the sink cabinet? That way I can run the kitchen sink too.



Edited 1 times.

I don't have another trap arm.

This one is driving me crazy.

do I need a "plumber" or a "drain cleaner"?



Edited 1 times.

I also spoke to tenants about what they put down the disposer.

The one thing that they said they do is they pour coffee grounds down the disposer. For the last six months, every day.

I know this is flagged as a no no because it is basically like pouring sand in it. That and grease probably make a perfect match.

If I had to deal with it I would first install a cleanout - running water while you are snaking is very useful. Next I would buy a Ridgid K39 or the General Wire equivalent and snake the clog out myself.

A professional drain cleaner. not a handyman. Get a company that specializes in drains and guarantees their work. While some people here don't like the big drain companies, they do know their field well.

Any cleanout that you install should be above the T in the wall so that water can be run while the drain is cabled. For the record, I wouldn't break out any walls at this point. You mentioned coffee grounds.. they are the nemesis of almost every office building (until they install a single cup coffee system) because people are too lazy to take the extra 2 steps to the trash can. Adding coffee grounds to drain sludge is similar to adding gravel to mortar. it adds volume and strength to the clog, and makes it far more difficult to remove. After someone cleans the drain properly, then consider your replacement options, don't panic (yet) and jump the gun.

So this morning I had another plumber came by, this one recommended by a friend who is in property management, said this plumber may be able to help.

After looking at the situation, he said he is not going to snake it from the sink cabinet because the other plumber already did so. He said he has a balloon thing that attaches to a garden hose that may loosen it up. So he went up to the roof and attempted to lower the hose down.

As you can see from my pic, the vent pipe did an offset above the wall cabinet. That offset seems to have two elbows not sure if 90 or 45 but the balloon thing could not make it past the 1-1/2" offset CI pipe. So he gave up. Said may be best to run a new line.

So I paid him a minimum hour fee of $90 and he went on his way.

Now I am looking for pro#3.



Edited 2 times.

1. If he has equipment that attaches to a drill- don't use them
2. If they use any type of ballooning device on a drain- don't use them
3. If they are being paid to open a drain and don't, then they don't get paid for the drain. Pay any reasonable trip charges and other fees for the call, but that is it. If they are working on the job and you stop them before they get done, then pay the hourly for their time.

Call a professional drain cleaner. I won't name names, but "away go troubles, down the drain"

Most of the companies that primarily do drain work have rooter in the name for fairly obvious reasons. Your pipes inside look similar to this at the moment:

It will take a lot of cabling and a lot of water to move all this gunk down the drain. The gunk buildup has to get mixed with the water to reduce the viscosity until it can begin to flow. Line under the sink with plastic or newsprint in the meantime, because it won't be pretty.

Hmmm...would it be better to run something from the roof, with the kitchen sink drain trap connected, so I can turn on the faucet and send water down?

There is no other cleanout on that line that I can use. That offset in the cast iron vent really throws a pickel to the whole situation. Can they properly snake it from the roof through the 1.5" CI pipe with an offset like that? Seems it should work if its supposed to snake though elbows, tees and eyes.

What is this place set up like? single family house? slab foundation? Cleanout for the main sewer line accessible?

The "Balloon Thing" that a previous plumber used was a "Drain Bladder" previously mentioned which are available in different size range for small and large drain pipes. Cost $7 to $20.

DITYS'er unfamiliar how they work --- A garden hose is attached to one end and bladder/balloon with the garden nose is inserted into the drain pipe. When water is turned on the bladder fills and expands to form a plug within the drain. The only outlet for water is then THRU the bladder and into/down the drain For best results it is important that the water has NO PLACE to go but toward the obstruction/clog in the drain. (NOT up thru the vent or out into a sink etc. expandable / mechanical plugs / caps can be used on vents / drain openings etc.if needed.)

In the present situation I also would insert the balloon and hose into the vent -- first try inserting down as far as possible (attempting to past beyond all connections to the drain) before applying water pressure.

While applying water pressure thru the bladder, control of the flow of water must be accomplished in one of several ways.

If drain is still connected to the sinks, and if needed, (bladder is not pushed past the branch connection) they could be plugged with stoppers but someone would ABSOULUTELY HAVE to standby and keep hand pressure on them to keep the plugs in place or they are likely to blow out and you will have your own kitchen geyser. I would first actually partly fill the sinks with water and for insurance hold small towels over the stoppers.

If needed,the sink drain could be disconnected and a expandable plug inserted into the drain opening -- or other suitable mechanical plug/cap. Someone should also be on hand to ensure THIS plug/cap stays in place.

Above are examples, it of course depends on your drain/s and vent pipe configuration

The idea is to have ALL possible outlets for the applied water pressure blocked/plugged/capped so that the ONLY outlet is toward the blockage. In this case it may would actually be a advantage to only insert the bladder a short distance from the TOP of the vent while blocking ALL other outlets. Fill the drain up to the near top of vent, and insert the bladder ---- this would allow a large column of water to form a high "head" pressure to develop.

For info, In other situations to clean long runs of straight drain pipe, the bladder and hose can be inserted into the drain, water pressure on, water pressure off, and bladder pushed into drain further and further, off and on, --- the hose with the large bladder can be a effective snake in some situations.

I have read that professionals do not seem to think much of the garden hose and bladder process. "It may just create a small hole in the blockage for water to flow thru, etc. etc." . Much depends on just what is the blockage and if patience is used. It won't help if there are tree roots or broken, collapsed pipe etc. However with softer blockages it WILL often work. I agree, why pay a professional to attempt to clear a drain with a bladder as it is a fairly easy DITYS process. Professionals should be used when other equipment is needed.

This process should not be hurried. The LONGER THE FLOW of water can be forced into the drain the better chance the flowing action will accomplish removal of soft clogs, debris (coffee grounds) etc.

Before I replaced aprox 60 ft of cast iron drain under my house with PVC I used a bladder several times over the years with good results. I have also effectively cleared relatives drains using snakes and the bladder process.

MOVING water, and especially under pressure is a VERY powerful force.--- IE the Grand Canyon.

DOWNSIDE. More than one person may be required. In addition to the "Bladder with hose" operator, someone will need to be by any needed/installed temporary plugs/caps. If a on/off valve is not handy at the point where the bladder and hose is inserted, someone must operate the hose bib valve. Communication is important if the situation requires the water to be tuned off due to leakage etc.

This process is a cheap, easy and in my past usage a very effective drain cleaning operation for most common blockages. Cost $7 to $20 for a bladder and some DIYS time. IF this will not work then professional cleaning can be used.

WC,

You might have missed it, 5 posts up, we tried the balloon bladder, but the hose connection nut cannot make it past the vent, we were up on the roof trying to lower it past the kitchen connection but we couldn't even lower it for three feet from the top due to an offset in the 1.5" CI vent pipe.

Professionals don't think much of them because they tend to be a gimmick that ends up causing thousands in water damage if the clog slides down the pipe and stops past another drain. Professionals use the proper equipment the first time.
I have seen them push a loaded up sink line that was full of soap and coffee grounds into a vertical 4" stack and clog the stack, causing the floor below it to back up in an office building. The guy ended up opening up the cleanout on the lower floor and using a barrel mounted shop vac he removed approximately 80 gallons of crud out of the line. With a 3/4" cable he cleared the stack and got a garden hose from a mop sink to help get the mess down the line. If he had been more patient, it wouldn't have flooded the lower floor, but would have taken approximately 15 more hours (if it was like two floors above that a month later).

Sum --
I read the previous post where someone already used a balloon (bladder). It was not clear if it was used in the way I am suggesting one should be used. Because it could not be pushed past the sink drain piping the sinks MUST be plugged OR drain removed and plugged/capped. ALL possible outlets for the applied water (using a bladder) must be blocked. If all the drain is filled with water and water is applied using a bladder the flow/pressure must go somewhere. You want all the flow to be directed to the blockage and nowhere else.

Applied flow of water must be given time to wash away any soft blockage.

If the drain is filled and only a very small about of water can be added thru a bladder (over time) this would indicate that a major blockage is occurring --- broken or collapsed pipe, very hard blockage etc.

If large amounts of water can be dumped into the drain via a bladder - and the only place it is flowing is down and out the drain, it would indicate that the flow of water is helping to clear it. Patience is needed. It may be required to apply flowing water for a reasonable time to allow flushing action to work. In this case, since all else has failed, maybe 30 minutes or even longer.

IF during the previous balloon attempt all drain connections were plugged/capped etc. then I also must scratch my head and from here without additional information cannot suggest anything else.

When (not if) you problem IS solved, please post how it was done.

KCRoto --
To bad what happed in a industrial / office complex. As with any process the configuration of the piping must be taken into account. Thankfully a private home or apartments piping configuration is not quite so complex and as a DITYS'er I would not be afraid to use a bladder having successfully done so several times. I do so as a DITYS'er not as a professional. Professionals would be needed for something I could not do or have the equipment to do.

KCRoto, yes single family house on slab foundation.

There is a 4" cleanout outside but I do not see flow going there from the kitchen drain, but this could be due to it being plugged up.

I will followup with some more info.

But here is a close up pic of the offset in the vent pipe. For some reason above the wall cabinet the pipe came out then went up to the roof.



Does it look like a 90 elbow or a 45 elbow?

WC, I understand what you are suggesting.

If I can lower the bladder all the way down, which I believe would have been possible if there wasn't an offset in the vent pipe, by measuring the distance from the top of the vent to the kitchen drain connection, I can drop the bladder to a lower point, then I am reasonably sure we may have a shot at blasting the blockage open.

On the other hand, since we can't drop it below the offset, in order to use the bladder, I would have to disconnect the kitchen sink connection and plug/cap it somehow. The elbow sticking out is a 1-1/4" copper pipe, and I am not sure what type of cap I would need to be able to seal it off to the point it would be able to withstand the pressure from the bladder. Most likely the only thing I can think of is some hose clamped contraption.

Basically then it becomes a battle between the blockage vs the kitchen drain cap which one would bust loose first. With a head of 7 feet or so of water above the connection, plus the bladder water pressure, if that cap fails I would have a flood in my hands so I am not ready to take that gamble.

I would consider bust open the concrete wall on the outside along the vent line above the sink drain connection, then cut out a piece of the CI pipe, replace it with a no hub CI san tee and create a CO on the outside wall first, then lower then bladder from there below the san tee.

Excellent. With a little teamwork, you and your plumber can get the line open in 20 minutes or less probably. After they get the snake started downward, open a door or window or something so that you can communicate. You can open the 4" cleanout and wait there and listen. The plumber needs to run the snake down the line until you can hear it clicking and smacking around easily. Flush the toilet to wash anything down the line that already got pushed out. Now, as the snake spins, have him work his way back until you can't hear the snake. Once you can't hear it, it means that he pulled past or is in a clogged section. Work that spot back and forth vigorously until you can hear the snake again, then pull back and repeat. By the time snake is almost back at the sink, you should be able to run water using the waste arm trick and cable the line while the water is running and the crud in the drain will wash out as the snake beats it loose. If you can see down the cleanout while this happens it will look like tar and black paint. After the line is draining it needs to be ran at least 2 more times with water flowing full blast down one side of the sink.
Best of luck =)

The master plumber came by today.

But we got rained out.

KCRoto I was thinking of calling a drain cleaning service but I saw your post late, so that became plan B.

Here is what the plumber said.

That the old 1.5" CI line collapsing is highly unlikely. It is original 1955 construction so it would be underneath the footprint of the house, and the big tree is on the other side.

That the only thing he can try is to snake it from the roof but it may not work.

If it does not work, and I can further investigate with a camera.

Before I know it, the snaking would be $300, the camera is $450, the cost will add up...and to run a new line by breaking the wall outside to tie a new line...will be $800 to $1200. So long term it may be better to run a new PVC line with a CO on the outside.

We will try the roof snaking tomorrow.

Snaking from the roof is a far more risky, and with the extra offset in the line, not worth the trouble. Master plumbers don't clean a tenth of the drains that a drain service would. Their time is better spent doing other work generally.

I might go with someone else... perhaps one that does more drain cleaning as his primary service, rather than a general plumber that also happens to do rodding. I would stay away from the big franchise rooter guys though.

I would prefer you start all over, having someone rod the line with perhaps a 1/2" cable with a good size head on it. Try to run water from another fixture while doing it too.

Stay away from big business because drains are their meat and potatoes? Or because they guarantee their work? Hiring a company that specializes in the work you need done makes more sense than a random owner operator that has too many irons in the fire to be exceptional in one area.

Finally, the plumber went up to the roof, and used a drain cleaner and cleaned the line with a larger head. At the end of the day the line is cleared and the kitchen drains fine.

Knock on wood that it stays cleared for many years.

Make sure you keep his number now.