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Author:
franzmetcalf (CA)
Hi all,
I have an extreme newbie question.
I have a whole house water filter whose head valve has cracked. I have a replacement head and would love to install it, myself, to save the cost of a plumber. The unit is set up with union fittings on both the inlet and outlet sides. It was just installed a couple months ago. With a couple of wrenches and a little know-how, I believe I should be able to loosen the unions, unscrew the nipples, replace the head, and tighten everything up again. Piece of cake for someone who knows what they're doing. Trouble is, I don't.
So I would first love to hear whether this job is as simple as I think it should be. And, second, which of the nuts I need to loosen. Here is a photo:
[picturelife.com]
Would I be right in assuming that, to remove the inlet nipple, I should lock onto the large nut on that side and turn the nut nearer to the inlet counter-clockwise? When that is loosened, I could twist out the nipple. At least I could if I could see that the nipple had a collar on it. Or should I begin by loosening the only compression ring I think I see, over on the extreme right? I do know I need to loosen both sides to remove the valve head. But how to do that? I am all ears.
So then, does anyone have any advice for me?
Thanks from a humble amateur.
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Author:
hj (AZ)
Unforunately, your photo is from the exact front, but we have to see the unions from an angle so we can tell WHICH way you have to turn the big nuts. One side of the nut has a thread and you unscrew the lock nut from that side. You do this to BOTH unions and then remove the filter unit. Unscrew the nipples from the old head and install them EXACTLY the same way on the new one.
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Author:
franzmetcalf (CA)
Hi hj et al.,
Many thanks for that clarification. It happens that I took another photo that might be just right. Here it is:
[picturelife.com]
Hope that's helpful!
Franz
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Author:
hj (AZ)
The one on the left union, you hold the right hand piece and pull up on the nut, You missed the right hand union but I think you hold the left hand side and push down on the nut.
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Author:
bernabeu (SC)
pipe union:
how to loosen a union:
for YOUR purpose:
WATER turned off ~ depressurize/drain system also if possible
open BOTH unions and remove entire filter assembly, then work 'on the bench'
==============================================
"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638
Edited 1 times.
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Author:
franzmetcalf (CA)
Thanks hj and bernabeu,
Putting your two replies together, I believe I'm supposed to.
1) Turn off water, depressurize. Done.
2) Put one wrench on the large nut.
3) Put the other wrench on the collar to the right side of the nut (closer to the filter)
4) Turn the large nut "up" (meaning clockwise from the perspective of the filter).
5) Eventually, the nut will come off the nipple for inlet side of the filter head.
6) Repeat (in mirror image form) on the outlet side.
7) Unscrew the nipples. Clean the nipples. Reapply tape to nipples.
8) Rescrew nipples (not so tight, this time).
9) Replace filter unit.
10) Align the threads on the unions and tighten nuts.
11) Turn on water at shut off--very slowly--and hope for the best.
Did I get the nuts and directions right?
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Author:
Paul48 (CT)
Look closely at the drawing in Bernabeau's post. Notice the union nut is large on one end, and small on the other. That smaller end draws the unions together...lefty loosy, righty tighty.
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Author:
franzmetcalf (CA)
Paul48,
I think I finally get it how these work. Man, it takes a village to teach me the simplest thing!
As you say, the inside diameter of the union nut is smaller on one side. When turning that clockwise (righty tighty) from the perspective of the smaller side, it pulls the two pipe sections toward each other, tightening the connection. In bernabeu's illustration, this moves the right side toward the left. That's the opposite of what I want to do. I want to loosen the connection. In fact, I want to loosen it all the way so that the nut comes off the left section of pipe altogether, right? So, I need to turn the nut counter-clockwise (lefty loosy) from the perspective of the filter (from the right in the illustration). Eventually, the nut will come off the further pipe (on the left in the illustration and the photo) and the filter will be half free.
So all is clear as long as bernabeu's illustration corresponds to the union on the in side of my filter. I just don't see how you can tell which side of the union is the smaller and which the bigger. It could face either way, right? And the hex shoulders are the same size on both sides. Can you tell from the photo?
I hope the link works. It's just a crop of the photo at [picturelife.com]
Heaven knows I am ignorant and now I must seem blind, but I don't know what I'm looking for.
Thanks guys.
Edited 3 times.
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Author:
hj (AZ)
The left side goes "up". The right side MAY go down, but since you did not give us a picture of that one I am guessing.
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Author:
hj (AZ)
One side has a THREAD and the other side does not. The threaded nut turns CCW relative to the part it is screwed on to, and has NO relevance to the "perspective", (left or right), on the filter.
Edited 1 times.
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Author:
steve (CA)
The filter side of the right union looks like it's the threaded half...
Edited 1 times.
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Author:
bernabeu (SC)
there is no 'flow direction' through a union, however the two 'halves' are NOT symmetric
some tradespeople would install them with the 'nuts' on the outside of equipment
some would install with the 'male half' in the direction of flow
look CAREFULLY and you will see the threads on the 'coupling nut' ~ they are standard right hand
your unions may be mounted 'opposite' or with flow
since the filter cap is busted anyway just 'go for it' and learn
==============================================
"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638
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Author:
hj (AZ)
The right one "looks" like it should rotate downwards but the picture is not angled enough to see for sure. A photo of it from a point further to the right would be better.
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Author:
bernabeu (SC)
OP:
a union has THREE pieces
two are NPT and thread onto the pipes being connected
the third piece is the 'connecting ring' or collar which has a PROPRIETARY mechanical thread
when you 'break' the unions and remove the cap assembly part(s) of the unions will be on the cap assembly and part(s) of the unions will remain on the piping
==============================================
"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638
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Author:
WC (VA)
With all the previous good info / diagrams, the OP has probably solved the problem by now.
A lesson for anyone else. Go to your local hardware, ask to see a union (metal) in this case. With a union in your hand it will be very easy to see how it fits / unfits together. This may help with any other questions how fittings may work.
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Author:
Paul48 (CT)
Bernabeau...........I found it a long time ago, but I'm not gonna look again. It's not proprietary. If I remember correctly, it's a machine screw thread. There was an engineer on here arguing that it was a tapered thread.
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Author:
franzmetcalf (CA)
Well, the OP hasn't quite solved the problem, but he's ready to begin again.
I returned to the crawlspace and looked carefully at the two sides of the unions. Though the caps are tightened all the way and the threads are almost invisible (at least to me), the situation is as many have said: the unions are mirrored, both having their threaded side facing away from the filter. Steve's photo depicts what I will be doing. Why not already? Because my cheap Taiwanese wrench broke as I attempted to loosen the first nut. I've been to the hardware store and am now proud owner of an 18 inch Husky pipe wrench. Not perhaps the beset, but I do not think it will break the very first time I try to use it. And, as bernabeu says, the valve head is broken, already. There's nothing to harm. I'll use some force, this time.
I hope to report success in a jiffy.
Franz
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Author:
hj (AZ)
IT is whatever thread diameter and pitch the manufacturer wanted to make it, which is why unions are NOT interchangeable. And since when have engineers ever had any practical knowledge?
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Author:
hj (AZ)
Without being able to interpret your terminology, we are just guessing, but IF the "threaded parts are facing AWAY from the head", Steve's diagram will be reversed from what you want to do, because those directions should be tightening them, at least the left hand one which is the only one we have a good picture of. An 18" wrench? You must be planning some serious tightening. You are like the husband who decided to fix the drain under his laundry sink after we left the job Friday night. Monday morning the wife asked if I would fix it. After I did the work I had scheduled, I took care of the drain. Just as I was finishing up the husband came home and he had the biggest wrench he could find, namely a 36" one. There is no way he could have gotten it into the space under the sink, much less do anything with it.
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Author:
bernabeu (SC)
Quote
Author: Paul48 (CT)
Bernabeau...........I found it a long time ago, but I'm not gonna look again. It's not proprietary. If I remember correctly, it's a machine screw thread. There was an engineer on here arguing that it was a tapered thread.
Proprietary in the sense that different union manufacturers would have different TPI and often different thread diameters - even year to year differences from the same mfgr.
except Dart brand - any Dart union half could be mated to a different Dart union part (assuming same pipe size and 'schedule')
The 'bonnet' nut is a machine thread - the pipe ends are tapered pipe threads (NPT)
My nickname was 'shoulder nipple John' because my steam trap assemblies could be swapped out w/o taking a measurement as long as you had Dart brand unions and Sarco traps.
==============================================
"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638
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Author:
bernabeu (SC)
OP:
You may need a 24" and an 18" for old 1" unions if the installer used some muscle.
To reassemble use a little Neva-Seez on the nut bearing surface and an 18" & 14" wrench.
? Ain't piping fun ?
==============================================
"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638
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Author:
franzmetcalf (CA)
Hello all,
The job is done, I think.
As hj suspected, the inflow union was the opposite of Steve's guess. The outflow was as Steve thought, probably because the photo captured it a little better. I absolutely could not tell from the threads which way to turn the nut, but I was able to tell by the diameter of the inside of the nut. It wasn't much different on the two sides--on a 2" nut less than 1/8", but it was there. I tried on the inflow nut and couldn't budge it. I gave up and tried the outflow nut. It just needed the tiniest force. Once that was off, I had confidence to muscle into the inflow union nut and it finally gave. (I needed the 18" wrench not so much for the length, but because it was the smallest wrench to handle a 2" nut. All those inches did help, though, on that inflow union nut.)
Once the nuts were off, I had to get the nipples out. I was able to get one off with a strap wrench. The other needed channel locks. Sheesh, no wonder the valve head (made of PvC) was broken! I took the nipples upstairs (it's 100 degress in LA today), cleaned them (man, old PTFE tape is hard to clean out!), reapplied tape, reinserted the nipples, and went back to the crawlspace.
Then I spent half an hour tightening the nuts until the dripping (mostly) stopped. Thank goodness for the handy shut off loop for testing.
Okay, I admit the unions are leaking. The inflow about one drop per 30 seconds. The outflow one drop per 12 seconds. I'm tired and sweaty and want to retire from plumbing, but I can't if the unions are leaking. My question is: Do immediate slow leaks like these tend to stop after a while? Or do they tend to get worse?
Thanks, everyone, for the lessons and the encouragement. I have new respect for plumbers!
Edited 1 times.
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Author:
hj (AZ)
Brass ones do not "corrode" so they usually keep dripping. If you have read any of my previous postings, you would have applied pipe joint compound, (paste, NOT TPFE tape), to the mating surfaces and would not have had any leaks.
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Author:
franzmetcalf (CA)
HJ, of course I read your previous postings and thank you for them. I realize now that the pieces of the unions did have a little paste on them. Probably I should have applied more, but I didn't have any. Nor did I use tape. Hmm, that sounds really lame in retrospect. The thing was that I was specifically advised by the manufacturer of the valve head that paste sometimes contains material that corrodes or degrades PVC, so I should use only PFTE tape. I followed the manufacturer's instructions. But somehow I extended that to not using tape on the unions, either.
So, is the Neva-Seez bernabeu recommends a type of joint compound paste? Looks like I should get some or the equivalent and go back and loosen and then tighten the nuts again.
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Author:
Paul48 (CT)
Go back up to Bernabeau's mechanical drawing of a union. The 2 mating surfaces should be square when tightened. Loosen and back the nut off on the inlet union. Let it just hang on the pipe. How do the 2 surfaces look, are they square to each other? If not, can you move a pipe to square them? Do you have to loosen the nut on the other union to get them squared? Once you get it squared, spin the nut on and goose it tight with channel locks. Then tighten it with the pipe wrenches. Repeat for the other union.
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Author:
franzmetcalf (CA)
The inflow union lined up quite easily. After the intial very difficult loosening, I was able to spin the nut off and the two surfaces didn't appear to move at all. When reattaching the filter I was, again, able to line up the surfaces without difficulty. The nut spun right on. The outflow union was harder, requiring me to wedge up the filter to align the union surfaces, but it worked after a minute. I'm afraid the trouble here is simply with my not using any joint compound.
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Author:
hj (AZ)
SOME pastes are not compatible with PVC, you just have to read the directions, but TPFE tape is NOT an option except for the attachment to the piping. It is irrelevant, however, because that is a brass union you would be applying it to, NOT the PVC.
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Author:
hj (AZ)
1. The reason for the "rounded" nosepiece on the unions is so they do NOT have to be perfectly "square" to seal.
2. He is working between two FIXED points so he has no option to reposition the unions to make them "mate" better.
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Author:
franzmetcalf (CA)
Hi all,
The leaks are now at about 150 seconds per drop on the inflow and 90 seconds per drop on the outflow. I like that progression from yesterday.
Franz
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Author:
bernabeu (SC)
NFG
while the union faces do not need to be perfectly 'square' they need to line up sufficiently that the 'shoulders' do not touch upon make up
use the 24 and the 18 with a little more ooooomph
unions are surprisingly robust
if they break, buy new ones and try again
ps. neva-seez is anti galling compound to be used on the collar threads and collar bearing surface to reduce friction to ease the installation and permit 'tightening' - ask for a small can (or its equivalent) in any auto parts store
the union should make a metal to metal seal
==============================================
"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638
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Author:
HawaiiPlumber (HI)
Funny how everyone missed the 9000 pound pink elephant in the room. Why the head was cracked. Probably because the only way those nipples and unions fit in the space was to bury those brass threads in that plastic head. Should have done it with CPVC. And support that thing if its just hanging there.
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Author:
hj (AZ)
Should have done WHAT with CPVC? It is not some 100# thing. That unit is perfectly at home being supported by the piping. That was NOT why it cracked. Either the male metal into the female plastic caused stress, or it was defective.
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Author:
Paul48 (CT)
If you look at the pictures, you can see the nipple buried into the plastic. No sense going down that road though. It doesn't help getting it fixed.
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Author:
HawaiiPlumber (HI)
Ya hj thats what I wrote. Brass being buried in the plastic. CPVC Male adapters with CPVCxBrass Unions Would have prevented the Brass and plastic issue. Probably around 10 pounds or so and thats alot of weight hanging on those brass to plastic connections. Usually the filters have a mounting bracket so they are not supported by the piping. This will probably work fine but if it cracks again then we will know for sure that either brass to plastic or weight is the issue.
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Author:
hj (AZ)
I can guarantee you that hanging on the pipe connections was NOT the cause of the breaking.
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Author:
franzmetcalf (CA)
Hi guys,
It's an open question why the PVC head cracked. My installer (of course) says he was careful. The manufacturer says it was the installation and, like HawaiiPlumber, points out that the best practice is to use a PVC nipple to attach to the PVC head.
I will say, though, that the first head worked for 14 years with a brass nipple attached to PVC, so I think *care* is the main factor, not material (though the right material helps). I've been careful to try to take cue from Paul48 and not bury the nipple so deep in the PVC. Oh, and the tank is three feet tall and around 8" in circumference, like an extra-large scuba tank; it weighs maybe 50 pounds! That's way too heavy (in my mind) to be hung on the piping. I don't know squat about plumbing (as you all can tell!), but that feels intuitively wrong. I've rigged up a little platform under the tank to support it. I tried to find indoor rated Schedule 80 1" nipples to replace the brass ones, but they weren't available and I needed to fix my home (gotta please the wife, after all). So, for now, I've reinstalled the brass, but I might order some PVC nipples for next time I need to switch out the tank (in about three years).
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Author:
HawaiiPlumber (HI)
Dont use regular PVC as it is not code approved for indoor applications. Use CPVC. Which has the same installation process besides a special cpvc glue. This way you can get male adapters and make nipples to fit. I would go all the way into the non broken filter with the plastic. Get a CPVC union for that side and a CPVCXBrass either union or male adapter to screw into the existing union on the supply side.
Hows that Guarantee working out for you HJ?
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Author:
hj (AZ)
quote; Oh, and the tank is three feet tall and around 8" in circumference, like an extra-large scuba tank; it weighs maybe 50 pounds! That's way too heavy (in my mind) to be hung on the piping.
That length does not show in your photos, and at that size, it should not even be hanging but rather sitting on the floor.
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Author:
hj (AZ)
quote; Hows that Guarantee working out for you HJ?
Still in effect. The force is applied vertically and thus there is nothing that could damage the head.
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Author:
HawaiiPlumber (HI)
Unless both pipes are supported on each side of that 50 pound contraption. Then all the force is being applied yes vertically to those horizontal nipples.
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Author:
HawaiiPlumber (HI)
If it was sitting on the floor it would be pretty darn hard to unscrew it.
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Author:
franzmetcalf (CA)
Hi guys,
Yes, I promise to use CPVC. In fact, I rejected a couple of PVC nipples I almost bought at my local big box hardware store because they were regular PVC and it seemed ironic to have unrated plastic in my expensive water filter. Hawaii Plumber: I will replace the metal nipples when I next deal with cleaning the pre-filter. Meanwhile, if it ain't broke, don't fix it, I say.
To be exact, what I did was put a flat tile underneath the tank and a wedge between the tank the the tile. That way, the tank is supported, but when I need to unscrew the tank, I'll just pull out the wedge and turn the tank. To give hj some credit: not seeing the bottom of the tank, you might easily think it was just a standard size filter, not the big mama I have. Those filters weigh far less and they're not filled with charcoal and copper, either. Copper is heavy (as plumbers know better than anyone)!
Edited 1 times.
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Author:
HawaiiPlumber (HI)
If you do not have Isolation valves right next to the filters I would install those too and maybe a drain. Will make changing filters a lot easier.
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Author:
bernabeu (SC)
when / if you redo the piping use a Clevis Hanger on each 'side nipple' (close to filter head) to hang/support the weight of the filter (use schedule 80 CPVC threaded nipples - which you may have to order)
==============================================
"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638
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Author:
franzmetcalf (CA)
@HawaiiPlumber: Yes, I wish my isolation valves were closer. One's about three feet away, one's about two. That makes for a decent quantity of drained water every time I clean the sediment filter (about four times a year). But at least I *have* a proper isolation system now. Believe it or not, the plumber who installed the system created a special loop that the filter is on, complete with an isolation valve on the loop upstream of the filter, another valve on the main line running parallel with the filter loop, and another on the main line downstream of the filter, after the loop reconnects with the line. Wait, did I say on the *main* line downstream? Yes, I did. He put the downstream isolation valve on the main line, not the loop. While this did allow me to turn off the water on the loop, it also turning off the water to the entire home. That was okay when cleaning a filter. It was not okay when the filter failed and the home was without water for days while we waited for a replacement. I had another valve added on the loop itself, just a couple months ago.
@bernabeu: Do you think hanging the filter on the Clevis hangers is strong/safer than resting it on the tile? It certainly would make unscrewing the filter easier, but I worry about hanging that weight on the CPVC nipples.
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Author:
HawaiiPlumber (HI)
I think they would be okay as long as they are as close to it as possible. I think there should be a bracket that mounts to the head to attach to the wall behind it. If you look at the next filter you will see it has four mounting holes in it to attach that bracket. Im not fimilar with the other filter or if it has the mounting holes for the bracket.
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Author:
bernabeu (SC)
hang it on the clevii AND rest it on the tile
when you go to service it merely remove the 'blocking' and unscrew in place
best of both worlds
==============================================
"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638
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Author:
franzmetcalf (CA)
"The best of both worlds," yes, that sounds good and it's smart. Luckily, all these parts are cheap. I just have to remember to order them ahead of time.
Thanks guys!
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