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Author:
hj (AZ)
No. The "J" bends are from a "L.A. pattern" trap, usually with a threaded outlet, and a slip joint inlet. In your case, one appears to be soldered to a "male spigot/copper" adapter, but not sure how the second one is connected. You can remove the brass elbows from the cast iron tee, or elbow, in the wall and replace it with sch. 40 if you want to.
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Author:
sum (FL)
OK what is an "LA PATTERN" trap?
Do you mean that metal elbow that comes out of the wall, the horizontal connection seems to be a hub/solder connection and the vertical down facing connection is a slip connection?
I am assuming the left "A" out of the wall is a CI threaded tee, then a male adapter, soldered to a short piece of copper pipe, then the other end soldered to that elbow.
The right side "B" I think it looks just like that same elbow soldered to the copper pipe coming out of the wall right? I can see some solder on it.
Can I keep the two metal elbows which look very thick and heavy duty but change out the J bend and stand pipes?
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Author:
bernabeu (SC)
They were known in NYC as 'swing traps'.
They were only allowed in unusual circumstances when it would be impractical to re core-bore the floor slab in a hi-rise. (bathtub usage)
The 'swivel joint' would be integral to the trap assembly itself and may be proprietary thread. (or not).
The one on the left with the integral standpipe is new to me. Leave it alone and repaint it.
The one on the right will accept a new tubular standpipe but the swing joint of the trap itself????
Either one will unscrew from the cast iron
==============================================
"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638
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Author:
sum (FL)
"The 'swivel joint' would be integral to the trap assembly itself and may be proprietary thread. (or not)."
That doesn't appear to be the case here though.
Both of these metal elbows are thick, with a matt, yellowish finish. I think it's solid brass.
The rest of it is NOT the same materials as the elbows.
On the left p-trap, the Jbend is chrome - silver, smooth, thin chrome.
On the right p-trap, it's tubular plastic.
So it's not one integral trap assembly already, which tells me it can't be proprietary, right?
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Author:
bernabeu (SC)
SUM SUM SUM,
unscrew the swivel joint and find out
if all else fails repipe with quality:
you will need a brass nipple to go from cast iron to trap
==============================================
"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638
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Author:
sum (FL)
I will take it apart, but didn't want to as I wanted to make sure I am not messing with proprietary parts. That brass elbow looks weird to me.
So what is so special about a LA pattern trap? I still don't quite see how it is different from a "common" trap.
Are trap adapters used at laundry drain connections?
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Author:
bernabeu (SC)
once upon a time in a land far far away:
was the term: smooth integral bore
mechanical trap joints below the water line were NOT permitted and all traps were (gasp) ONE PIECE SOLID
one had to actually measure PRECISELY to connect a fixture
then came the 'LA trap' which had a swivel
the rest is history
==============================================
"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638
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Author:
hj (AZ)
Normally, the "J" bend and standpipe are a single piece with that type of drain. An "L.A." pattern "P" trap uses a cast brass elbow instead of a tubular one. The outlet is a rigid connection to the drain line, rather than the slip joint used with a tubular wall bend. The washing machine trap, which is what you have there, uses the cast elbow because it will not "rotate" if the hose pulls on it.
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Author:
hj (AZ)
Both of those elbows have a 1 1/2" "slip joint" thread for use with a conventional slip nut. The "trap/standpipe" which comes with that type of drain, is the same as the one used for a tubular "S" trap outlet to the floor.
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Author:
hj (AZ)
You will probably NOT find the trap/standpipe as a standalone item. IF you find an "S" trap, you can use the outlet bend for your washer and keep the "J" bend for when you need a trap. The difference is that a conventional trap uses a tubular outlet and an "L.A. pattern" uses a solder or screwed "rigid" outlet.
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Author:
hj (AZ)
You are doing your "normal" thing and making this whole thing much more difficult than necessary. EITHER remove the cast elbow and do "something" else, or get a tubular standpipe and attach it to the brass elbow with a slip nut, PERIOD.
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Author:
sum (FL)
The original problem was that because the standpipe is tubular when I shoved a drain hose to it it bends and leans.
I was thinking to change the standpipe to SCH40 to make it more rigid.
But after looking at the joint I am not sure what is the best.
You can see in the first pic how the chrome standpipe is angled from that washing machine hose.
I see now there are probably two solutions.
One is to get rid of that brass elbow on both, unsolder it to expose the 1.5" copper pipe, then use a shielded transition 1.5" copper X PVC coupling, then solvent weld the rest with SCH40. Problem is that joint would be a weak joint and it may be under pressure from the discharge.
The other is to keep the brass elbow and replace with the one piece tubular from the s trap set but swing it to the wall and I need to secure the standpipe with a strap to the wall.
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Author:
bernabeu (SC)
Quote
The other is to keep the brass elbow and replace with the one piece tubular from the s trap set but swing it to the wall and I need to secure the standpipe with a strap to the wall.
Excellent
KEEP the quality brass 'trap elbow'
If you decide to replace it ~ unscrew the assembly from the C.I. ~ replace with a threaded nipple and a threaded trap ~ no unsoldering or resoldering necessary, just some OOOOMPH !
hj,
many of the circa 1970s NYC swing traps had proprietary swivels and were 'exception' permitted only in hi-rise work to correct mistakes on tubs and showers
==============================================
"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638
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Author:
sum (FL)
I am going to remove the brass elbow along with the threaded adapter. If it will come apart, then I will put it back. I just want to look down that pipe and see which way it goes.
Looking down the vent at the roof with a pen light didn't work, so this is another shot. I might be able to see with a telescoping mirror.
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Author:
sum (FL)
Ok so back in the old days no slip joints for washing machine traps.
What about the overflow tee behind a bath tub? Was that also done with one piece no slip joints to adjust the height of the shoe and the overflow tube? That was also one piece precision no tweaking?
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Author:
sum (FL)
Ah I get it now, it is the outlet connection that makes it an LA pattern trap.
My trap for the sink is not an LA trap because the wall tube is connected via a trap adapter and not a rigid connection.
I remember I had a lav trap once where the chrome wall tube was soldered into the copper pipe. So that was technically a LA pattern trap?
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Author:
bernabeu (SC)
sum;
just so you are clear:
you have a female C.I. female threaded tee in the wall
you have a copper male NPT x male copper sweat adapter
you have a (thanx, hj) solder LA trap
using MUSCLE unscrew the adapter at its 'hex' from the CI fitting leaving it soldered to the trap elbow
==============================================
"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638
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Author:
hj (AZ)
The standpipe is leaning because either the elbow is NOT "level" or someone has bent the riser. The right hand one is 'flexible' because it has a slip joint trap, rather than the required one piece trap and standpipe like the left one has. In the "old days" I installed hundreds, if not thousands, of those traps in home utility rooms, and they did NOT "wiggle".
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Author:
hj (AZ)
One thing to be aware of, is that while a "S" trap outlet tube will replace a trap/standpipe it may NOT be high enough since that tube is shorter than a standpipe drain, so you may need to add a slip joint extension to it to raise the inlet high enough.
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Author:
hj (AZ)
quote; where the chrome wall tube was soldered into the copper pipe
Not really. That was a "make work for the (union) installer and make it difficult for the homeowner to repair" trap. It was a common requirement in areas with a strong union presence to make life difficult for people. It might also have been one of the most disregarded requirement ever.
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Author:
sum (FL)
The elbows are straight down.
The left hand chrome one for some reason is not a perfect "U" shape at the bottom. For some reason the stand pipe side bent to the left so that sweep is more than 180 degrees. The right side is composed of a tubular with a solvent weld extension piece.
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Author:
sum (FL)
I took it apart.
Cleaned the brass elbow threads. That stuff is very thick. It is in VERY GOOD shape.
The CI side the connection is all rusted, only the few threads where the brass elbow threaded into are still good, the rest is just fused together rust.
I had to stump on the handle with my foot to get that thing to unscrew. I didn't see any dope on the threads.
I tried to use a flash light and inspection camera to look down to see if I can tell which way the drain runs. No luck, can't see anything.
I used some dope on threading the elbow back on. Putting is back on was much easier.
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Author:
bernabeu (SC)
==============================================
"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638
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Author:
hj (AZ)
The left one has been "abused" which is why it is not a perfect "U". IF the elbows are properly oriented, when you install the new standpipes they WILL be vertical.
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Author:
sum (FL)
hmm...I looked and can't seem to find an S-trap anywhere in one piece. Everything else is two pieces.
The one I could find is on Amazon.
[www.amazon.com]
and it's chrome and not even available.
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Author:
hj (AZ)
They only make them in two pieces. THe outlet is what you use and the "J" bend is a standard one for use with any tubular wall bend.
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Author:
hj (AZ)
If you search for "washing machine trap" you will find tubular brass ones like your left hand, but they want $125.00 for them. I never paid more than $20.00 for them when I used them. They have two piece pvc tubular ones, like your right hand one for $15.00.
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Author:
bernabeu (SC)
sum,
just 'roll' the standpipe (rotate it towards the wall) and use two Minerallac Clamps on each to act as 'standoff hangers'
==============================================
"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638
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Author:
hj (AZ)
Maybe Sum will know what you mean by "roll" the standpipe, but I do not, unless you mean rotate it towards the wall. 31 postings and who knows how much time for something that could have been done in about a half hour.
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Author:
bernabeu (SC)
this is how it is done in the United Kingdom:
==============================================
"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638
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Author:
sum (FL)
hj it may end up taking 2-3 hours of total time for me instead of 1/2 hour of a pro.
But in my case that 2-3 hours may spread over 2-3 weeks as I am part time DIYer and work on multiple things I run into an issue I stop, and move onto other tasks and it may be another week or more before I turn back onto this, meanwhile I can think about it, order parts if necessary, one of the benefits of working on vacant properties on my schedule as I don't have to get it operational that day.
Sometimes it gets confusing when I have 20 concurrent tasks all open ended LOL.
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Author:
hj (AZ)
quote; it may end up taking 2-3 hours of total time for me
step 1. remove the "standpipes" from the cast elbows
2. get new tubular standpipes with slip joint inlets
3. Install new standpipes on cast elbows
4. NOT a ""2-3" hour job.
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Author:
sum (FL)
It took over 2 hours to drive around looking for this s-trap and searching online. Believe it or not I didn't even know those were brass elbows because of the paint, and more than one layer of paint.
Now I am thinking I need to send a snake camera down this line, can a snake camera go down a 2" CI line with a 1.5" opening?
More importantly, on the higher, left side threaded tee opening, is there a way I can modify it, without cutting into the wall or original CI pipe, to put in a cleanout?
Is there a threaded wye I can screw into that opening, laying horizontal, the straight opening would be a CO, the branch would connect to a p-trap? Probably stick out too much off the wall though...
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Author:
hj (AZ)
In the "old days" I would use a close nipple and a drainage tee with the side inlet pointing downward. Into that I would put another close nipple, then attach the standpipe to it with a slip nut. The cleanout plug would go in to the 'front' of the tee.
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Author:
sum (FL)
How about this? PVC and everything solvent welded except the CI inlet. I think it will stick out too far though.
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Author:
sum (FL)
I found this.
Mueller Industries
LA P-Trap With Union, 1 1/2 In, HubxSlip
Model: 05220
From the look of it seems this is SCH 40 and not tubular. This would allow me to connect to the rough brass elbow with a slip joint but the rest of it I can solvent weld a SCH 40 pipe to it? If so it would make a sturdier standpipe and reduced the number of slip joints.
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Author:
bernabeu (SC)
PERFECT
==============================================
"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638
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