Over 698,000 strictly plumbing related posts
Plumbing education, information, advice, help and suggestions are provided by some of the most experienced plumbers who wish to "give back" to society. Since 1996 we have been the best online (strictly) PLUMBING advice site. If you have questions about plumbing, toilets, sinks, faucets, drains, sewers, water filters, venting, water heating, showers, pumps, and other strictly PLUMBING related issues then you've come to the right place. Please refrain from asking or discussing legal questions, or pricing, or where to purchase products, or any business issues, or for contractor referrals, or any other questions or issues not specifically related to plumbing. Keep all posts positive and absolutely no advertising. Our site is completely free, without ads or pop-ups and we don't tract you. We absolutely do not sell your personal information. We are made possible by:
Author:
Xenaite (GA)
I'm in the middle of a toilet repair and need advice on how to proceed. First let me give you a brief history of what has taken place that got me to this point. Our toilet was wobbly, so my husband removed it and discovered the wax seal needed replacing, which he did and after that the toilet was nice and snug to the floor...for a few days. Then yesterday the toilet got loose again, so thinking that maybe he didn't tighten the bolts enough the first time, he snugged them up a little. About 30 minutes later we heard a loud popping noise, which was the toilet bowl cracking. So, we removed it and discovered that the flange was broken, which is why the toilet was wobbly.
We were going to remove the old flange and install a new one, but looking inside the pipe to me it appears that the old flange is just butted up against the end of the pipe, and not sitting inside it, because the edge of the flange is on the same level with the pipe. If that is the case does that mean that the end of the flange is fused to the pipe with solvent and if so would it be hard to remove?
If getting the old flange out is too much to take on, then our other option is to put a repair ring over the broken flange. We bought two: The shiny metal repair ring pictured has issues with the holes lining up with the holes on the existing flange. They land over the broken out section of the flange, so they would not be screwed to the existing flange, but to the concrete underneath, while the other 2 holes would be screwed to the flange. Would this be ok or cause the toilet to sit on an uneven base and crack? The black "super ring" pictured has the top three and bottom two centered holes over the flange, but I would need to drill new holes to attach, as they don't land over the holes on the flange. However, the four corner holes sit outside the edge of the flange and are not touching the concrete. However, neither repair ring sits flat on top of the broken flange and wobbles back and forth, like the top of the broken flange is not level. Once the repair ring is attached with screws will it snug up and be ok, or will it loosen back up over time and be wobbly again, possibly causing the new toilet to break? The black "super ring" says one method of attachment is to cut away the rest of the broken lip of the flange and attach the repair ring directly to the concrete, and we had considered that, but I was concerned about leaks using this method. Roto Rooter wanted to charge $399 to put on a repair ring, which I can't afford. I can buy the repair ring for $6-8, so I'd rather do it myself if possible. Please advise on what the best way to proceed would be. Sorry for the lengthy post, but I just want to make sure we get this right, because I don't want our new toilet to crack like the last one. I have attached pictures of the broken flange and the two repair rings we bought, so you can see what I am dealing with.
Thanks for your time and advice,
Xenaite
|
Post Reply
|
Author:
steve (CA)
The broken flange is glued over a short piece of pipe. I wouldn't think anyone would glue 2 pipes end to end, so I would bet there is coupling/fitting there. The repair flange needs to screw down to the concrete, not to the existing flange. The shiny one is stainless steel, that's the one I would use.
Edited 1 times.
|
Post Reply
|
Author:
packy (MA)
i would also look at this type.
as you can see, there are many ways to repair the flange.
make sure to use solid brass bolts and nuts..
[www.fernco.com]
|
Post Reply
|
Author:
bernabeu (SC)
DITTO steve
==============================================
"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638
|
Post Reply
|
Author:
Xenaite (GA)
Hi Packy,
Thanks for your reply. We did look at these type of flange repair pieces, however we can't use them in our case because there is no room between the existing flange and the concrete floor to get them underneath. The existing flange is tight to the floor and since it is glued in and not screwed down, we cant remove it to slide them underneath. I don't suppose these could be screwed to the top of the flange instead?
|
Post Reply
|
Author:
Xenaite (GA)
Hi Steve,
Thanks for your reply. When I place the ring on top of the broken flange, it doesn't feel like it is sitting firmly against it. If I place a finger on each side and apply pressure it wobbles back and forth like a seesaw, so I guess when the flange broke it warped it a little? Once I screw it down I know it will snug up, however it will still be sitting on an uneven base and I'm worried about that causing the toilet to crack. Do you think it would be better to break off what is left of the existing flange lip and screw the metal ring directly to the concrete, so it is sitting on a firmer base, or would I not get a good enough seal between the metal ring and the toilet if I remove the existing flange ring?
|
Post Reply
|
Author:
sum (FL)
Xenaite, I am not a plumber just a DIYer.
I think your toilet cracked because you tightened the nut too much. It's China so you cannot tighten those bolts to solve your wobbly problem. What you should have done, after you installed the toilet and ensure you have a tight seal between the toilet and the flange, is to shim the base of the toilet to make sure everything is tight and not wobbly, then apply something around that base - grout, sanded caulk, plaster of paris etc...that should take care of the wobbly issue, unless your subfloor is not property supported and is flexing on the weight of the toilet plus the weight of the person sitting on it.
As for the flange repair refer to the pros here on various suggestions for the repair but don't rely on the flange to support your toilet and keep it from wobbling.
|
Post Reply
|
Author:
steve (CA)
Try screwing the metal flange down and see if the plastic one flattens out. The metal one will flex some, without causing a sealing issue.
|
Post Reply
|
Author:
bernabeu (SC)
listen to steve AND sum
the toilet bolts to the flange ONLY TO MAKE A SEAL
the toilet rests on the floor and should be LEVEL and grouted/caulked into place to avoid ANY wobble
==============================================
"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638
|
Post Reply
|
Author:
Xenaite (GA)
Sum,
You're right about the shims. Roto Rooter told me the same thing, that our floor is not level and that is why the toilet cracked. We bought some plastic shims and are going to use them to level the toilet once we get it installed.
|
Post Reply
|
Author:
Xenaite (GA)
Someone at the hardware store told us to use concrete screws with a plastic or lead anchor to secure the flange repair ring. He said after we drill the holes in the concrete to put "Liquid Nails" glue in the holes, insert the anchors, and let dry overnight. Then put the screws in the next morning. Any thoughts on doing it this way, or is just screwing directly into the concrete without the anchors and glue all right? I really don't want to invest more money in this repair than I already have, buying anchors and glue, unless I have to.
|
Post Reply
|
Author:
hj (AZ)
TapCons will screw in to the concrete without plastic anchors or adhesive.
|
Post Reply
|
Author:
Xenaite (GA)
hj,
Thanks for the advice. We have the Tapcon screws. Now I am wondering if we have the appropriate drill or not. I just watched a video from the Tapcon company on how to install their screws properly and they said a hammer drill must be used to create the best quality hole. I'm concerned because all we have is a regular drill with a concrete drill bit. I can't afford to go out and buy or rent a hammer drill. Do you think we can get by using the regular drill?
|
Post Reply
|
Author:
jerco (MD)
Being that this on a concrete floor I will assume that is 4" ABS pipe. If that's the case, you can cut away the top part of the old closet flange and install a 3" ABS flange w/ stainless steel ring. It will glue to the inside of the 4" ABS pipe.
|
Post Reply
|
Author:
bernabeu (SC)
still needs to be anchored to the subfloor
use any 1/4" carbide tipped masonry bit with any drill you have (may require 'oooomph')
use 1/4" plastic 'shields'
use #10 flat or oval head stainless screws (wood OR sheet metal thread OK)
==============================================
"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638
|
Post Reply
|
Author:
Xenaite (GA)
jerco,
Just to clarify your answer...when you say cut away what is left of the broken flange, do you mean just the lip that sits above the floor and leave the part of the flange that is glued inside the pipe in place? So I would be gluing the new flange inside of what is left of the old one in the pipe?
|
Post Reply
|
Author:
sum (FL)
I don't think a regular drill will drill through the concrete. It may but will take a LONGGGGGGGGGGG time. Try and borrow a hammer drill from a neighbor, bake him some brownies in return.
I will use 2-3/4" long 1/4" size Tapcon screws. I don't think you need the overnight glue. One thing about Tapcons, once you drilled the holes, it should bite, especially if it's a solid concrete slab. On walls sometimes it doesn't bite if you hit the mortar joints.
|
Post Reply
|
Author:
jerco (MD)
Yes Xenaite, that's it exactly. You just have to remove enough of the old flange to allow the new flange to reach the floor.
|
Post Reply
|
Author:
packy (MA)
if the hole for the tapcon screw is a little loose, i have a bunch of small tie wraps that i cut the end into little plastic strips. shove a few plastic ends into the hole to act as shims. works fine every time.
|
Post Reply
|
Author:
sum (FL)
Packy I use tooth picks for the same purpose when tapcon won't bite into concrete.
|
Post Reply
|
Author:
sharp1 (IL)
In a pinch, I have used a normal lead pencil broken off in the hole as an anchor, but not where it would come in contact with moisture. A couple of examples would be towel racks or TP holders on cinder block walls.
I just installed 3 new toilets in my son's 15 year old home. All were PVC flanges. The 1st toilet flange I found had 3 roofing nails "securing" it. The hole for the flange was so large there was nothing under the 4th screw hole. The 2nd toilet I removed had 4 drywall screws all driven all the way through the flange and holding nothing. The 3rd flange had 4 drywall nails driven through the flange and flush with the subfloor. I know the plumbing was done by a licensed plumber. He passed away 2 or 3 years ago so I cannot ask him, but I wonder if He left the flanges unsecured because the finished floor had not been installed. Maybe the floor installer was supposed to raise the flanges slightly and slide the vinyl under it. He did not. None of the toilets ever leaked. Now they are secured with Stainless screws.
|
Post Reply
|
Author:
Xenaite (GA)
I'm thinking about doing what jerco said and just removing the top lip of the old flange and leaving the glued part inside the pipe and then gluing a new 3"flange inside. This would be a lot easier than having to drill all those holes in concrete. My husband started to drill the holes and it is taking a really long time since all we have is a regular drill. However, I have read on other sites that some people have had problems with 3" flanges not draining well because of the reduced opening. If I go with the 3" flange, what is everyone's thoughts on it reducing the opening and causing a problem with clogs?
|
Post Reply
|
Author:
steve (CA)
If you cut off the existing flange and glue in a 3" assembly, it STILL needs to be screwed down to the concrete. Keep the existing flange, install the stainless steel ring you have and keep on drilling holes.
|
Post Reply
|
Author:
Xenaite (GA)
Steve,
The existing broken flange that we have is only glued in and not bolted to the concrete and it hasn't budged for 10 years.
|
Post Reply
|
Author:
Paul48 (CT)
Maybe it would last the rest of your life, without screws. Maybe it would break in an hour,or so. Wanna do it right, or gamble? Feelin' lucky?
|
Post Reply
|
Author:
Xenaite (GA)
Well, we lucked out and our neighbor had a hammer drill we could borrow, so my husband was able to make short order out of the drilling and we anchored the "Super Ring" repair ring down to the concrete. However, he forgot to put the recommended silicone between the repair ring and the flange. Is this really necessary or will it be all right without it? Could we just run a bead of silicone sealant around the edge of it without taking it off, because the tapcon manufacturers say not to back out the screws and reuse the same hole, so I don't really want to remove it.
|
Post Reply
|
Author:
Xenaite (GA)
Thanks to all who offered advice on our plumbing repair. We had a couple of hiccups along the way, but we finally finished. We put on a Super Ring flange repair ring put the wax seal on and hooked up the water, only to find that when we shimmed up the toilet we broke the wax seal and it leaked. So on our second try, I dry fitted the toilet with the shims first, and then taped the shims to the floor so they wouldn't move when we moved the toilet to put the new wax ring on. I also taped an outline of the position of the toilet on the floor, so that when we put the new wax ring on we could place it exactly where it needed to be with the shims, so we wouldn't have to adjust it and break the seal again. It worked like a charm. We set the wax seal and filled it with water and no leaks since! Now all that remains is to grout the gap where it is shimmed, but we're going to wait until tomorrow to make sure no leaks develop before we do that. Thanks again to all who aided in the process. I learned a lot along the way.
Edited 1 times.
|
Post Reply
|
Author:
jerco (MD)
You used a wax ring with a plastic funnel didn't you?
|
Post Reply
|
Please note:
- Inappropriate messages or blatant advertising will be deleted. We cannot be held responsible for bad or inadequate advice.
- Plbg.com has no control over external content that may be linked to from messages posted here. Please follow external links with caution.
- Plbg.com is strictly for the exchange of plumbing related advice and NOT to ask about pricing/costs, nor where to find a product (try Google), nor how to operate or promote a business, nor for ethics (law) and the like questions.
- Plbg.com is also not a place to ask radiant heating (try HeatingHelp.com), electrical or even general construction type questions. We are exclusively for plumbing questions.
Search for plumbing parts on our sponsor's site:
Special thanks to our sponsor:
|