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Author:
sum (FL)
This is another horror show on this stupid foreclosure property I recently acquired. Never in my wildest dreams I anticipated to have so much problems. Trapless lav sink, ventless island kitchen drain, loose live wires run a mok in the attic, blown insulation covering can lights that's not rated for contact, double tapping circuit breakers, multiple circuits sharing same neutral conductors that's not MWBC, and so on and so on and so on. To say I am overwhelmed would be an understatement.
So today after considering what all had transpired, I decided to open up the wall in the kitchen. There is no cabinets yet so not a big deal. Here is what I saw. Yes, that pipe connecting to a santee is actually pitching UP!
REPEAT: THIS IS NOT A JOKE!
Good news, that's is a pipe coming from a bar sink, and I had planned on cancelling that whole bar anyways, so that pipe will be deleted. But can you believe your eyes?
Now, my question. This is an original 2" CI vent drain. Why is the upper portion gray? It is galvanized? Is this typical back in the 1950s? The galvanized that's above the donut is original right?
Second, it seems he actually used a rubber coupling clamped OVER the HUB of the santee right?
To fix that I guess I will first remove the two couplings, and see how the CI pipes were cut. I will cut a short piece of 2" CI pipe, and use two shielded no hub couplings. I just don't know if the bottm coupling is covering just a piece of CI pipe, or part of a hubbed CI fitting. If it's a hub and he cut that pipe flushed I am in deep trouble, right?
Edited 1 times.
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Author:
packy (MA)
the bottom connection is probably a cut off piece if 2" cast iron.
cut the galvanized up higher and use a shielded coupling at the top and at the bottom to transition to 2" PVC. put a 2 x 1 1/2 san tee for the kitchen. rough it in at about 14 off the finish floor so you can install a disposer.
make sure to run a snake wire down the 2" cast while it is wide open.
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Author:
sum (FL)
Thanks Packy.
Is the galvanized pipe original? Why half galvanized half CI? I thought galvanized was only used for water supply lines back then?
I am familiar with the special transition coupling to go from PVC to CI. I typically use Fernco's PROFLEX 3000-22 which is equivalent to Mission CP-200. Is there one for PVC to galvanized? How does the OD of galvanized and PVC vary?
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Author:
packy (MA)
PVC and galvanized outside diameters are exactly the same.
galvanized vents are common in old houses. used because it was cheaper and easier than packing and pouring lead joints.
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Author:
sum (FL)
Ok packy so I can use a normal shielded coupling with no change in the OD between PVC and galvanized.
For the bottom connection I will see what the cut looks like, I hope it is a clean even cut through the CI then it will be easy. If its a chain snap cutter with ragged edge or worse a longitudinal crack I am in deeper trouble (nothing surprises me anymore at this house).
How high up do I cut the galvanized? Looking at the outside there is indication of rust but that section should be just venting. Best to cut say 12" or higher to clear the rust or go even higher sat 12" below top plate? I am wondering if I need something to strap or brace the top portion of the galvanized pipe while I cut be wise I worry once the cut is finished it may drop down on me. A few years ago I had a section of a 2" CI came free from the roof lead flashing and fell into the wall after cutting the bottom out.
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Author:
hj (AZ)
quote; Why half galvanized half CI?
We did it all the time. Sometimes the drainage was cast iron and the vents were galvanized, and other times EVERYTHING smaller thna 4", (we did not use 3", was galvanized.
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Author:
hj (AZ)
Why cut ANYTHING? Just hit the cast iron hub with a hammer and it will crack off leaving a smooth end on the galvanized that you can connect to with a 2 x 1 1/2" No-Hub coupling.
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Author:
sum (FL)
The galvanized pipe has an OD around 1-7/8", is that 1.5" or 2" nominal?
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Author:
sum (FL)
I think I will cut it higher just in case the lower section is badly rusted. I can see where it connects to the CI now I see rust stain. Besides, it seems this pipe is not strapped above I don't want to hit it with a hammer and knock loose the connection between the pipe and roof flashing.
Since I never dealt with galvanized before, how thick is it? Do I use the Lenox CI blade or use a regular metal blade?
Also, how would I demo the inversely pitched PVC pipe? It is full of water and about 18 feet back tongue bar. if I cut it off it will flood the floor. Any idea how to make the least amount of spill?
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Author:
steve (CA)
Sum, the galv. pipe should be about 3/16" wall thickness and just use a standard metal blade. How about cutting the PVC just above the water level and sucking the water out with a shop vac?
Also, galvanized vents with CI drains was very common here in CA.
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Author:
sum (FL)
Shop vac?
Ok I will try.
I just want to strangle the guy who dud who did this plumbing.
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Author:
sum (FL)
I can't believe my luck, or lack thereof.
So I decided to attack this problem this afternoon. Got my shop vac.
First I cut the galvanized pipe up top, used a metal blade and made a clean cut, no problem.
I know the water in the PVC line rises to the bottom of the san tee, so if I cut it right there, and prop that up with a 2x4, I can keep the water in the line. I made the cut through the branch of the san tee, no issue no leak.
Next I loosened the rubber couplings around the san tee, and eased out the piece I will abandon.
I noticed the 2" CI pipe protrude off the slab by about 1.5" or so, just enough depth for the shielded coupling I have. Good.
I stepped back and look at what I have, and was surprised to see the galvanized pipe not exactly lining up with the CI pipe. It's a bit off. Hmmm, why would that be? I grabbed the galvanized pipe and moved it a little to see if it can be aligned with the CI pipe, it did.
I then let go and went to get the PVC parts, primer and glue etc...and as soon as I turned my back, the galvanized pipe fell from the roof and smashed into the CI pipe.
The CI pipe is now broken. I don't know if it may have been cracked below. I guess I need to now chisel carefully by hand another two inches down around the CI pipe? GRRRRRRR...
The galvanized is also dented, but I can make a cut, no problem there. I don't know if I can push it back into the lead flashing sleeve up in the roof, though.
Thoughts? Any helpful ideas or encouraging words, I can sure use some now.
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Author:
steve (CA)
Sum, I would think the only damage is what you see with the broken piece. The concrete around the pipes looks kinda crappy, so it might not be that bad to chip out. I would drill a bunch of close-spaced holes, all around the pipe, to make chipping out easier and lessen the chance of damaging the CI. A lessen learned about leaving a stack unsupported.
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Author:
packy (MA)
sum, if it was me..
i would carefully epoxy the broken piece back together. when it has set, use a good 4 band shielded coupling. it won't go anywhere with the coupling clamped right and it will never come apart.
as for the vent thru the roof, toss the galvanized and push PVC thru the flange.
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Author:
sum (FL)
I will try some drilling and see.
I worry about hitting the top of the hub of the fitting below though. It's probably a lead joint and if I drill too deep and end up chewing that out I have a bigger mess. I have to excavate very carefully.
I also am wondering if the Lenox CI blade I have can flush cut the pipe after I expose more pipe. That blade does not flex like a 12" metal blade and may force me to cut at an incline with my sawzall. I guess I'll see what happens then.
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Author:
sum (FL)
packy I will take a look at the broken piece again. It looks crusty so I am not sure epoxy might work. However I might excavate more down to have enough room for a 4 band coupling (I have now a 2 band) with needs more depth. Need to investigate more.
As for losing the galvanized that's a good idea now how are galvanized joint together it has a threaded coupling right? I am worried if there is a threaded coupling above the hole in the top plate I may not be able to ease that pipe out from below.
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Author:
hj (AZ)
Buy SEVERAL 11" blades, because you will need them before you get the cast iron cut off.
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Author:
hj (AZ)
It fell down so it is a SINGLE piece of pipe. But, you have to push it up through the roof to remove it so just push it high enough to get your new pipes in and connect it.
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Author:
sum (FL)
I can't use the 8" Lenox diamond CI blade?
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Author:
sum (FL)
I couldn't get the galvanized back into the roof boot. For some reason it won't go, and its really heavy. I went up to the roof and its a lead flashing that I assume wrapped the top of that pipe.
So I made another cut and removed the galvanized. Thinking PVC is lighter and easier to push back in - I am kind of doing this blind from below. It won't go in either.
Will it be easier if I can use 1-1/4" PVC to get into the roof at least the top part of it...
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Author:
bernabeu (SC)
no
1.5 was removed - 1.5 should go back in
you will not be able to use a lead 'wrapped' roof flashing with PVC
you will need to replace with a 'rubber boot'
this IS the 21st century
==============================================
"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638
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Author:
hj (AZ)
Yes, but it will still take a while to do it, and depending on how "hard" the cast iron is, it make take more than one blade.
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Author:
sum (FL)
In that case I guess I will tear out some sheet rock in the ceiling so I can attach a 12" piece of 1.5" galvanized to the top of the 1.5" PVC so I can keep the lead flashing. I am not going to expand this project into tearing out roofing tiles and redoing membranes and flashing.
So it will be cast iron at the bottom, then PVC for all the fittings, all the way to the bottom of the roof, then a short piece of galvanized pipe, if I can't use PVC for the last foot. Why can't PVC be used? Because of diameter difference? I thought they are close enough to be interchangeable?
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Author:
hj (AZ)
The 1`1/2" PVC has the same dimension so it should slide in to the lead flashing, but if it was "rolled" in to the pipe you have to make sure the new one is all the way to the top.
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Author:
sum (FL)
OK today I have a bit more time, so I took my time and went shopping for fittings, not knowing exactly how I will end up plumbing the fittings.
First I started to drill some holes into the concrete around the broken 2" CI drain. After some time and cleaning up I was able to expose over 4" of pipe. I found a hub there, so the drain is shallow. I then cut out the broken end. Then used a grinder to slightly smooth off the sharp edge, as I don't want that to cut into the plastic sleeve.
I first used a regular Diablo bi-metal blade, it did NOTHING to the CI, I used it because it's long and I can do a flush to the floor cut, as the broken end is at floor level. Then I switched to the 8" Lenox CI blade. Called a local plumbing supply store, asked to see if they have a 10" or 12", nope, only 8". So I have to make do with what I have. It was a hard cut to keep the blade horizontal as best I can, but I got it done.
Next, I have to figure out how to connect the fittings. You see, this is a duplex and the kitchen wall is a middle common wall serving two kitchens, unit A and B. I am in unit B.
Some time ago, unit A was renovated and the kitchen sink is now on an island so it no longer need to drain here. HOWEVER, the original fitting I removed was a sanitary cross, with openings to both sides.
My original plan was to keep that configuration, that if one day unit A wants to move the sink back to the wall, there will be a connection there. So I bought a sanitary cross, a 2 X 1-1/2 X 1-1/2. When I tried to put it in I noticed the PVC fitting when oriented in a back to back position, will not fit between the width of the wall. Even if I cut a hole on the sheetrock it will not fit. The old CI san cross is much "skinnier" and it had a female thread, capped with a plug. The new PVC is a slip connection, it is already "wider", and I need to glue in a female adapter, then thread in a plug, I can't make that work, not unless I cut a big hole in the sheetrock and all the way through the cabinet in unit A. So, can you think of a way I can still do the sanitary cross? Or don't worry about it since it's abandoned for an island?
I started to work up top. I was able to get a 1-1/2" PVC pipe into the roof boot, but didn't try to turn it all the way in.
Down below, I fold the sleeve of the no hub coupling down, and put that on the CI pipe. Then I glued in a 2" PVC no hub adapter, a short piece of pipe, then a santee for the CO, then a 2" street santee for the kitchen drain, which is now about 13" off the finished floor. Does that look OK? I used a santee for the CO instead of a regular CO tee because I want it to stick further into the cabinet and not recessed too deep.
I am wondering if my CO is going to clear the bottom plank of the cabinet?
Currently my plan is to put a full 10' long 1-1/2" PVC pipe up to the roof, and wherever it ends below is my 2" to 1-1/2" transition. I will use a 2" coupling with a 2X1-1/2 bushing. Or should I go 1-1/2" all the way down to the top of the santee and use a bushing there?
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Author:
sum (FL)
I guess I am good to go?
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Author:
steve (CA)
Sum, if I had enough 1½ on hand, I would run it all in 1½, otherwise I would use whatever 1½ I had and then continue with the 2"(if I had some laying around).
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Author:
sum (FL)
I think I will go 1-1/2" above the CO. Also may be I should use a CO tee. Still not sure if its ok to delete the sanitary cross.
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Author:
steve (CA)
Sum, the coupling could be encased, but I would leave it exposed. Is the brown wire, in your last pics, lamp cord? If yes, it's not legal.
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Author:
hj (AZ)
Who did the wiring? It looks like someone turned a kid loose with as spool of wire.
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Author:
sum (FL)
The wiring is a mess too.
This guy did a lot of unsound renovations. All those loose wires are low voltage wires to the other side of the duplex.
He put those hockey puck cabinet lights on the top and bottom of cabinets.
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