I recently noticed some 1/2" copper leading to my shower with what appears to be significant corrosion. The hot side appears worse than the cold side, but the cold side has it as well.

My questions are, how serious is this problem, what is the probable cause, and how do I correct it.

These pipes are between my shower and tub, and are not readily accessible. I am worried that I will have to tear out my shower to repair this.

My house is about 43 years old, and I assume that these pipes are original, though I do not know this for sure.

[s1056.photobucket.com]

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Steve

This is a close up of the worst looking pipe, feeding the hot side of the shower. The black area almost looks moist.


This is a wider shot. The cold shower supply also is showing some similar corrosion.


This picture is taken from the opposite vantage as the second picture. The copper pipe at the bottom is the cold supply to the toilet.

All the existing water damage is from earlier leaks in at the shower valves, that dripped down. Those were repaired about 7 or 8 years ago.



Edited 1 times.

The bottom pictures seem to show external corrosion which is probably not significant. The upper one, however does show "destructive" erosion which will probably cause a problem in the fairly near future.

looks like 43 year old copper

time for a repipe

start saving and have it done PROPERLY with "L" tube copper

not the cheaper way with 'snaked' PEX

==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

43 year old copper does NOT have to look like that. There were external actions that caused the deterioration.

bernabeu, are you saying the only quality plumbers out there are those who use copper tubing and any of us who use pex do not do quality work?
please give me a straight 'yes' or 'no' answer.
P/S, i would estimate the cost of a repipe with copper to be 5 times the price of a pex repipe with ZERO discernable difference in quality...

if PEX is run 'home run' with NO clamps in the walls it is good

if clamps are 'hidden' it is junk IMO even though code permitted as the MINIMUM

if one replaces copper with PEX with hidden clamps then, IMO, one is a shoemaker

PEX = POLYETHYLENE X LINKED (cross-linked polyethylene tube)

HI QUALITY GARDEN HOSE

it is NOT cheaper to install PEX PROPERLY, it is merely EASIER and QUICKER

? straight enough answer ?

==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

quote..
"it is NOT cheaper to install PEX PROPERLY"..

i'm glad you don't do estimating for my plumbing company!!!

ht, what kind of external actions could cause that. I have a plumber scheduled to come look and I'd like to be somewhat informed.

Thanks

packy,

in actual practice PEX will be cheaper

in theory it would require MORE labor due to 'home run to each fixture' since many more holes through joists would have to drilled AND SLEEVED since it 'moves around'

a typical PEX manifold:


running 'home runs' through studs:


Pex bending bracket w/ nail flange:


Pex joining methods (will YOU bird-dog?):


typical Pex 'as built':




the MAIN issue:

does one want one's home plumbed with hi quality plastic hose with hidden clamps ?

or

tried and true metallic tube

OP,

first pic shows what I believe to be a 'pinhole' probably from inside -> out

in any event they all show EXCESSIVE corrosion

Cu, in order to last, must have water with a pH sliiiiiiightly alkaline (which is normal) and be properly sized so that the flow velocity is under 6 ft per second to avoid turbulence erosion, and be properly soldered with the flushing out of all excess flux

I/O/W: requires installation by skilled tradespeople to LAAAAAAAAAST

PEX requires the ability to snake a hose through the joists and use a clamp tool





==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638



Edited 2 times.

If you open it up enough to re-do it properly with copper, you can do it properly with pex. There's something odd going on there. The copper above(or below) that ABS looks fine.

Paul,

since the typical Pex installation includes hidden mechanical joint(s) how can it be 'proper' ?

a clamp on a piece of poly fitting securing it to a barb fitting IN THE WALL !?

WTF happened to us ?


.....rant over



==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

I'm quite sure my father and grandfather have done some flip-flops in their graves. "The times they are a changin", and maybe not for the better. Believe it or not, pex has been used in Europe for a lot longer that it has been here, with good results. Have you noticed, in the last 5 yrs or so, all the pitting (pin-hole) failures with the copper coming from China? So...in the end, you can have a skillfully installed copper re-pipe, that fails in 15 yrs." The best laid plans......."

You have a good point. I had a lot of corrosion and pin hole leaks in copper pipes that were in a 12 year old room addition. So re piped that section in pex.
But the 35 year old copper in the rest of the house looked great.

I've seen CI fail, copper fail, CPVC fail, that awful grey polybutalene (early Pex) fail. I have never seen properly crimped (copper ring) Pex fail in any application (mine or anybody elses).

The OP has one rotten section of CU that needs to be replaced. If I called somebody to fix it and they told me they would have to repipe the whole house, and if using PEX they would have to make home runs to a monster manifold, my reaction would be: (Deer in headlight look; and ("You're kidding, right?")

Whole house re-piping seems to me like overkill for my situation. My plumbing is distributed in the attic and it all looks clean (on the outside) up there.

Most of what I have encountered in the walls during remodel work is also clean, except in this particular cavity below about 3' from the ground. Even for these pipes, they are clean on the outside above about 3' over the slab. Around the corner but in the same air space, the downstream pipes feeding the tub have no corrosion at all.

perhaps some of the 'chinese' hi sulphur dry wall was used in ONE location ?

==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

Look to me that there is only one stud 2x4 rotted. The crroded elbow sits directly on the rotted wood. What caused the rot may have caused the corrosion. Was there some acidic material leaking or spilled in this area or on the wood prior to placing it in the wall?
The remaieder of pipe not in contact with he wood looks pretty good.

Well I had a local plumber out to inspect and quote repair. His conclusion was that the pipe was still good, no repair required at this time. After abrading the surface corrosion from the elbow with some sandpaper, the copper appears to be in good condition and the pipe intact.

Before:


After:


So I guess that's that the end for now.



Edited 1 times.

well, w'all got sucked into the toric ka-ka AGAIN

a picture appearing to be a pinhole forming was posted

a plumber had been called

w'all should have said: wait for his report

OP,

glad it only cost a minimum service call



==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

ps. as per Vanguard circa 1998

Quote

In manifold or MANABLOC systems, individual distribution lines run directly from a single
location to each of the fixtures or water outlets in the system. One of the reasons for the
development of this type of system in the mid 1980’s was to eliminate or diminish the number of
connections which needed to be made behind the wall since behind the wall leaks are more difficult
to detect and more expensive to fix. The MANABLOC system was developed by Vanguard and
offered advantages such as more balanced water flow, faster delivery of hot water with
accompanying water savings, and the ability to turn off single distribution lines without turning off
the water to the entire system.

==============================================

"Measure Twice & Cut Once" - Retired U.A. Local 1 & 638

I did a bit of research on pinhole leaks in copper a couple years back.
I know Montgomery county, MD has had a big problem with it.
From what I recall, water velocity in the pipe has nothing to do with it.

I believe the final determination on pinhole copper leaks is the PH of the water.
The closer to pH-7 (neutral) the better. What was happening as I recall, is as
the pH changed up or down, any solids in the water would tend to settle and latch onto the pipe wall. Hence horizontal runs always had more problem then vertical. Once the solids latched on the pipe wall, they would start an oxidation process (for lack of a better term) and then eat the pipe from the inside out. Naturally with "L" instead of "M", since the pipe wall is thicker, it would take longer to eat through the wall, but that does NOT stop the problem from occurring.
Only changing the pH seems to have resolved the underlying problem. I believe most water companies now understand this and do a good job to try and control the pH, If your on well water that is another issue.

My2Cents