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 Leaking water inlet valve on dishwasher, contractor problems...
Author: Anonymous User

Hi there, I was hoping to get some advice/comments on a situation that I've run into right now. Recently a contractor came in to fix my hot water tank (replaced the gas valve, ignitor, and the Ventor motor). In order to complete his work without emptying the tank he said he was going to apply negative pressure to the water system, i guess this stops the water from exiting the tank while he does his work. Anyway, while this was going on I noticed some air gurgleing comming from under my dishwasher, I figured it was from the guy doing his work so I paid it no attention. Two days later my wife calls me at work saying there is water comming up from the kitchen tiles. After checking the dishwasher I could see a steady drip comming from the water inlet valve. I have since turned off the water to the dishwasher but the damage to my floors is already done and the tiles are toast.

I've called the contractors to look into it but they guy who came to my house said that this is a commin procedure and that it would have nothing to do with breaking the water inlet valve on the dishwasher, and that the leak/faulty water inlet valve was not their fault. I find it a little to coincidental that a fairly new dishwasher with no prior problems started to leak right after they did this. Any thoughts? Is he correct or should I be pushing for them to replace my damaged floors?



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 Re: Leaking water inlet valve on dishwasher, contractor problems...
Author: packy (MA)

nothing he did could cause the leak you talk about.

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 Re: Leaking water inlet valve on dishwasher, contractor problems...
Author: bernabeu (SC)

Quote

....I noticed some air gurgleing comming from under my dishwasher, I figured it was from the guy doing his work so I paid it no attention. Two days later my wife calls me at work saying there is water comming up from the kitchen tiles. ....

Was the leak from the valve itself or the inlet connection? ~ Garden hose type connection?

What did the (under warranty of course) repairperson say was the problem with the d/w valve?

If you heard the 'gurgling' and waited two days ????????

Water UNDER the tiles?

Was the floor not tiled WALL TO WALL including under the cabinets?

When one has 'McMansion' type construction one generally winds up S~O~L.

A tiny leak at the d/w connection, even if the fault of the water heater plumber, should NOT have caused water to 'bubble up' from a PROPERLY tiled kitchen floor.

The PURPOSE of tiling a kitchen floor is to provide a water-tight barrier. If, however, the tiles are not wall to wall (including under the cabinets and d/w) any leak is into the equivalent of a hidden shower pan with possible MAJOR damage.

You may use the 'shlom' tile job to be an excuse for a PROPER kitchen re-hab.

Best of luck to you (sorry for the tough love)

:)

================================================

Retired U.A. Local 1 & Local 638 ~ Measure Twice & Cut Once ~



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 Re: Leaking water inlet valve on dishwasher, contractor problems...
Author: Anonymous User

Sorry I was a little vauge when I mentioned tile, it is a tounge and groove type of tile (some kind of wood composite) and not ceramic tile, and no it is not tiled under the dishwasher so the water ended up getting under the tiled floor, although I don't think that it would have mattered. I could be wrong on that as I might have seen the puddling before any damage was done to the tile.

I guess I found it odd that this guy came in and did this and the next day my water fill valve was leaking. I read somewhere that negative pressuer in the lines can cause the rubber actuators to not work correctly or be damaged. If no one thinks this is correct then I guess I will have to bite the bullet and fix the floor myself but again I have a strong feeling that these two events are related. The sound of air being pulled through the line under the dishwasher when he was doing this work and then the same thing leaking the next day seem related.

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 Re: Leaking water inlet valve on dishwasher, contractor problems...
Author: hj (AZ)

quote; Any thoughts? Is he correct or should I be pushing for them to replace my damaged floors?

I cannot see any way doing anything at the water heater would have any effect on the dishwasher or its fill valve, but I also do not know what he meant by "applying negative pressure" or how he did it. Normally, I just turn off the water to the tank and do the repairs.

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 Re: Leaking water inlet valve on dishwasher, contractor problems...
Author: hj (AZ)

My dad often said that when he worked on the boiler in basement of an apartment building, the next day some lady on the third floor a block away would call an say her toilet stopped working after he finished his job.

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 Re: Leaking water inlet valve on dishwasher, contractor problems...
Author: Fixitangel (NC)

Quote: "I also do not know what he meant by "applying negative pressure" or how he did it. Normally, I just turn off the water to the tank and do the repairs."

That's a new one for me too. Never heard of needing to apply "negative pressure" to replace a burner, ignitor or power vent.

If the person used compressed air to produce this "negative pressure", that might possibly explain the leak.

Need more info about the technique used to produce "neg. pressure".

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 Re: Leaking water inlet valve on dishwasher, contractor problems...
Author: Anonymous User

yeah, i was confused a bit too on that. When he explained it to me he said it was like putting a hole in the bottom of a bottle but it wont empty until you take the top cap off it. i think in order for him to replace the gas valve he shut off the cold water tap so there is no longer pressure comming from the city water, and to avoid having to empty the entire tank he pressurized the tank itself while he did the work. i'm not an HVAC guy and I had trouble invisioning it, but apparently its common and all of them do it. I know that while he was doing the work he did not want me to open any taps so as not to release the pressure he put in the tank (I guess that would be like opening the bottle, /shrug), anyway, it was when he did that I heard air going through the water pipe under the dishwasher.



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 Re: Leaking water inlet valve on dishwasher, contractor problems...
Author: m & m (MD)

By negative pressure, I think he probably just turned off the cold water valve, opened the drain valve to relieve residual pressure, and then under the "vacuum", proceeded with the gas valve change out. I do wonder if this could affect a solenoid valve and am inclined to think that maybe it could, though I've never heard of this scenario before.

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 Re: Leaking water inlet valve on dishwasher, contractor problems...
Author: LemonPlumber (FL)

Yes a vacuum of thirty pounds or more can damage a solenoid valve.Only if it was trying to open.If he did not tell you to shut off the dish washer/washing machine.He should have.If he did.you had a failure not related to his work.

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 Re: Leaking water inlet valve on dishwasher, contractor problems...
Author: North Carolina Plumber (NC)

I think a damaged solenoid valve should only allow the dishwasher to slowly fill all the time, not leak. I believe it was pure coincidence.

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 Re: Leaking water inlet valve on dishwasher, contractor problems...
Author: m & m (MD)

A damaged solenoid valve allowing the dishwasher to slowly fill all the time will eventually flood the dishwasher.

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 Re: Leaking water inlet valve on dishwasher, contractor problems...
Author: packy (MA)

if i were called into court as an 'expert' witness, i would testify that the plumber did nothing wrong.
pulling a vacuum on a piping system can not exert any more negative pressure than 1 atmosphere (approx 14 PSI). the piping is normally under 3, 4 or 5 times that much positive constant pressure.
what he did can be compared to going into a house to change something in the basement. shut off the water and open a hose faucet to relieve the pressure then perform the work. we even do this to change a faucet washer if there is no shutoff under the sink. if it is a hot water faucet that has no shutoff under it then we shut off the water heater and draw off a bucket of water.
this is done hundreds of thousands of times across the country every day.
i rest my case...

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 Re: Leaking water inlet valve on dishwasher, contractor problems...
Author: SwimRunPlumb (MI)

Bernabeu, I don't know how things are normally done where you are at, but I have been doing new construction for 14 years and have NEVER seen ANY flooring installed before the cabinets.

The cabinets are ALWAYS set first, and the flooring goes up to them.

With that being said, tiling the entire floor first may be a better option, but it is certainly not the real world. There are a number of things that COULD be done better in a house, but almost never are due to cost.

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 Re: Leaking water inlet valve on dishwasher, contractor problems...
Author: hj (AZ)

quote; Yes a vacuum of thirty pounds or more can damage a solenoid valve.

And HOW are you going to produce a "vacuum of 30 pounds or more", since a "perfect vacuum" is only 14+ pounds? And if it were a perfect vacuum the water would boil.



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 Re: Leaking water inlet valve on dishwasher, contractor problems...
Author: hj (AZ)

compressed air creates "positive pressure", only a vacuum pump can create negative pressure.

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 Re: Leaking water inlet valve on dishwasher, contractor problems...
Author: hj (AZ)

Holding a vacuum is a lot different than "creating negative pressure" with a pump. I ALWAYS hold a vacuum in the tank when I am changing parts such as elements or drain valves. But, that would have ZERO effect on your dishwasher valve. If, you heard "air" at the dishwasher, that would mean the valve was defective and sucking air which also means it would leak water when the water was turned back on.

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 Re: Leaking water inlet valve on dishwasher, contractor problems...
Author: hj (AZ)

quote; have NEVER seen ANY flooring installed before the cabinets.

I don't know where you are in Michigan, but around here, the floors are often installed before the cabinets. It saves having to scribe the flooring to the cabinets.

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 Re: Leaking water inlet valve on dishwasher, contractor problems...
Author: bernabeu (SC)

hj,

here in SC the 'shlom' work is done using very very cheap 'imported' workers

labor cost is less than the cost of the extra matl. it would take to do it right

the 'cut tiles' are then hidden by 'shoe moulding' which is actually 1/2 x 3/4 'round stock' not even true shoe moulding which would be ripped down baseboard to give a double trim effect

welcome to the modern world of the 'affordable McMansion'

the new generation would not recognise quality construction if it raised up and bit them ~ they accept leaks and ruined flooring as 'par for the course' instead of being horrified

in addition, it is good practice to install this (level and ON TOP OF finished floor):


A DWIP Pan is a plastic liner, which is installed under the dishwasher. The Dishwasher Inner Protection Pan (DWIP) provides a waterproof membrane, which will redirect leakage to the front of the dishwasher, alerting you to a potential problem.

Size: 24" X 20-1/2" X 3/4" ~ 3/4 being the lip on 3 sides only, front is OPEN

cost of pan = $24.95 ~ place pan, roll d/w into place, done

================================================

Retired U.A. Local 1 & Local 638 ~ Measure Twice & Cut Once ~



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 Re: Leaking water inlet valve on dishwasher, contractor problems...
Author: SwimRunPlumb (MI)

Never have I seen the flooring installed first. I am in Grand Rapids, and have worked for numerous builders, big and small, expensive homes, track homes, upscale condo developments and apartments.

So, if you want to change your floor someday you have to deal with the cabinets because they are installed over top of the floor? Having the cabinets on top of the floor doesn't make sense to me, there is no point. It is not difficult at all to run the tile up to the cabinet.

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 Re: Leaking water inlet valve on dishwasher, contractor problems...
Author: m & m (MD)

And isn't it great when you go to change out a dishwasher and pull the bottom trim plate only to find that a second floor covering along with subfloor has been laid down. Now the dishwasher is "locked" up and even if you cut the undercarriage out to remove it, that still doesn't permit enough vertical opening for the new one to slide in.

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 Re: Leaking water inlet valve on dishwasher, contractor problems...
Author: bernabeu (SC)

m & m;

i have actually seen this with my own eyes:

a section of the 'backer board' with the tiles mortared onto it was laid in w/o fastening and with the edges 'caulked' so it would be removeable in order to service the d/w

W-T-F were they thinking ?

however, the customer paid the bill and was satified with the work

================================================

Retired U.A. Local 1 & Local 638 ~ Measure Twice & Cut Once ~

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 Re: Leaking water inlet valve on dishwasher, contractor problems...
Author: bernabeu (SC)

SwimRunPlumb;

so, if you want to change the cabinets (perhaps to euro style with the legs) you then must also redo the entire floor ?

once upon a time, in a land long long lost, non load-bearing walls were built OVER the finished hardwood flooring to allow for changes down the road

good luck finding quality construction today ANYWHERE at any price

================================================

Retired U.A. Local 1 & Local 638 ~ Measure Twice & Cut Once ~

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 Re: Leaking water inlet valve on dishwasher, contractor problems...
Author: packy (MA)

bernbeau, i have seen backer board with tiles set in the same way. it was an apron for a whirlpool tub and left removable for future servicing of the pump.

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 Re: Leaking water inlet valve on dishwasher, contractor problems...
Author: Anonymous User

@bernabeu

Thanks for the tip on the plate that goes under the dishwasher, I will definately get one. Thanks to all who responded, I am talking to a supervisor on monday and we see what happens from there. Just wanted to get the opion of some neutral proffesionals, thanks again.

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 Re: Leaking water inlet valve on dishwasher, contractor problems...
Author: SwimRunPlumb (MI)

The flooring is changed much more often than the cabinets are. And when the cabinets are changed, the flooring is always changed as part of a remodel.

I agree that things used to be built better, but it is unnecessary, and nobody is willing to pay what it would cost anymore. On the flip side, there are many ways that today's homes are much better than they used to be, energy efficiency, fire protection, engineered floor joists, and architectural shingles to name a few.

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 Re: Leaking water inlet valve on dishwasher, contractor problems...
Author: hj (AZ)

If the flooring is changed, it is not that big of a deal, compared to tearing out the floor, to "cut" the flooring at the cabinet and leave the rest under the cabinets. Then you put the baseshoe around the cabinets afterwards.

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 Re: Leaking water inlet valve on dishwasher, contractor problems...
Author: bernabeu (SC)

why would properly installed 30+ year flooring need to be changed w/o also replacing the 30+ year old cabinets ? !

we will agree to disagree

================================================

Retired U.A. Local 1 & Local 638 ~ Measure Twice & Cut Once ~

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 Re: Leaking water inlet valve on dishwasher, contractor problems...
Author: SwimRunPlumb (MI)

Because it is much easier and cheaper to change the flooring when you are sick of looking at it.

Cabinets are a much bigger and costlier ordeal.

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 Re: Leaking water inlet valve on dishwasher, contractor problems...
Author: Teltrab (LA)

May I suggest that we are all engaging in conjecture regarding the cause of the water leak? The proper thing to do would be to
1) determine the item that allowed water to get on the floor, and then
2) determine what caused that item to allow the water to be released.

That would require an in-person visit to look at the actual installation, and then once the source of the water was determined, then that item should be disassembled by an expert to determine why the item leaked.

I have seen flooring installed all ways that you guys have mentioned, and there are arguments for and against all of them (as you see above).

And a little off the subject, may I suggest that referring to something as "shalom" is rude and says a little bit too much about yourself than you probably would like.

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 Re: Leaking water inlet valve on dishwasher, contractor problems...
Author: hj (AZ)

WE are not installing the floor so we cannot tell ANYONE how to do it.

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 Re: Leaking water inlet valve on dishwasher, contractor problems...
Author: hj (AZ)

quote; referring to something as "shalom"

It is NOT "shalom" which means "peace", but "shlock" would be better.

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 Re: Leaking water inlet valve on dishwasher, contractor problems...
Author: bernabeu (SC)

i THOUGHT i wrote "shlom" (no A)

;-)

================================================

Retired U.A. Local 1 & Local 638 ~ Measure Twice & Cut Once ~

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 Re: Leaking water inlet valve on dishwasher, contractor problems...
Author: hj (AZ)

shlom is just a variant of shalom.

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 Re: Leaking water inlet valve on dishwasher, contractor problems...
Author: bernabeu (SC)

didn't know that

what i meant is pronounced SCHLOM ~ did not even think of confusion with Hebrew for Hello

very very sorry if i offended anyone

ps. i was actually raised in a bi-religious household and ended up an agnostic who actually believes in the golden rule and the question before acting 'what would the creator/son/prophet do?'

as ONE translation goes: "Peace on earth to all men of good-will."

i prefer: peace on earth

================================================

Retired U.A. Local 1 & Local 638 ~ Measure Twice & Cut Once ~

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 Re: Leaking water inlet valve on dishwasher, contractor problems...
Author: LemonPlumber (FL)

ASk what negative pressures could damage the solenoid of a GE/all others and as said washing machines and ice makers? A plumber may create negative pressure/He does not vacuum to draw any negative\.AS stated?vacuum?Not sure of the devise used or developed negative numbers.or as he would relieve as drawn,which segregates the draw/vacuum.Rest assured where any professional checks the failure it will be related to fouling by hardness not vacuum or rubber fatigue!Possible is not only unlikely in dated machines.It is failed by sectional screened diaphragms in newer machines.What machine model number do you own?Is it a vacation or not daily used machine?Crap happens .blame would not be set to plumbing pressure relieved.

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