|
- over 500,000 plumbing related posts
- The popular plumbing tips and advice forum and blog. Ask any toilet, sink, faucet, pump, water quality and plumbing related questions.
|
|
Author:
sum (FL)
The guy across from me had his new million dollar mansion right on the Fort Lauderdale New River. He's got a 75' sailboat docked out there.
He tore down the old small house when he bought the place and put in a new 2 story 4500 SF mansion, he hasn't moved in yet but sheetrock was just put in. I have no idea how much he put into this new mansion but I know the old property that he tore down cost him 500K and this new one he got one side of the wall using structural glass with no columns with an infinity edge pool that look like it flows right into the river.
The waterfront side of the street are all trendy multimillion houses and the dry side (my side) are mostly older houses.
while I out fixing the ball valve he walked over and chatted with me, and invited me to tour his unfinished home. As we went upstairs I saw his master bedroom plumbing and it looked strange. He has two 2" PVC pipe sticking out the floor, about 36" apart. On the opposing side he has a 1-1/2" PVC pipe sticking out right by the shower. I was confused, I thought the 1-1/2" is for a lav and the 2" for a tub. He said no, the 1-1/2" line is a drain for his tub. The double 2" line, he said, are for a double lav sink. He said it is because there is no venting, the GC says to make them 2" so they can use AAV under the cabinet.
This is a brand new building and it's all permitted and inspected.
I thought a bah drain has to be 2" but I could be wrong, I think in Miami it is but in Fort Lauderdale I just bought this property here so may be they still allow 1-1/2" for bath.
But a brand new building they are going to use two AAV by design? On a million dollar waterfront home. OK may be on a wide open space on a kitchen island sink with no wall nearby but this is against a block wall. I don't understand it.
|
 |
|
|
Author:
waukeshaplumbing (WI)
use them on every new house i do
they always put the kitchen in an island, so there's one
on the high end homes they always have weird architectural details that traps sinks in spots where you cant get a vent out....and in todays AAV world the carpenters refuse to box a spot out for me to get around it....they figure 'why should i when you can do a aav'
there are some plumbers who use them everywhere and just have (1) 3" main vent....every sink will have a aav under it....
i use AAV's on every new home and 10-20% of my remodels
|
|
|
|
|
Author:
vic
In many plumbing codes shower (only) drains need to be 2" minimum and that's mainly because they don't have a large dam. Meaning that unless it's a giant shower area the water needs to drain quickly or else the water could flow over the dam if the drain is under sized or partially blocked (generally that happens with hair on the drain screens).
With a bathtub it doesn't matter as much if the water drains slower and so generally 1 1/2" drains are allowed for basic bathtubs with most plumbing codes.
As far as AAV's (air admittance valves) as with all mechanical devices, they will fail eventually. It could be today or it could be in 30 years and so for ME (some others feel differently) I would never install one in new construction. If it was up to me they would be illegal for new construction.
|
|
|
|
|
Author:
sum (FL)
I don't get it though.
I understand sometimes it's necessary when budget is limited or in a tough remodeling situation and you are trying not to tear out existing stuff. Kitchen island is the only one I thought may be a true legit use if a chicago loop can't be done.
But they are not worried about money. They got a 8' long shower roughed in with eight body sprays with a rain shower in the ceiling, remote control glass sliding doors and they wired their stuff so they can open the garage door or set the AC temperature from their iPhones.
Yet they use AAVs on a double lav sinks that are against a block wall. From what I can see there is absolutely nothing challenging in their case about putting a real vent in. Here's the thing, when I asked why the lav sinks are using 2" drains, he seems to think his GC is so ingenious that he deliberately used 2" because he had planned on using AAV all along.
Edited 1 times.
|
|
|
|
|
Author:
johnjh2o (FL)
There has to be a std vent. AAV allow air into a DWV system but not out which you must have.
John
|
|
|
|
|
Author:
Paul48 (CT)
It's not as easy as you might think to run a vent up a concrete block wall.It would require micro-managing the job-site to make sure the masons kept the area you wanted to run the pipe in clear of mortar.
|
|
|
|
|
Author:
johnjh2o (FL)
It's done all the time down here. They even have blocks that are designed to do it.
John
|
|
|
|
|
Author:
joe plumber (NE)
No reason to install AAV's in a brand new home .As far as vent pipes in block walls ,it's done all the time here in Nebr.
|
|
|
|
|
Author:
sum (FL)
There is on the other side. I assume his shower and tub were tied into the vent in the opposing wall.
|
|
|
|
|
Author:
Wheelchair
Sum, as you have learned, people with money... don't have to be smart or wise. They paid others to do their thinking and labor. And when something doesn't work, they will complain, just like you and I. AAV's are a viable concept. I, like VIC, do not like that concept. But if its code approved in your state... who are we to say different.
Best Wishes
|
|
|
|
|
Author:
waukeshaplumbing (WI)
id choose a AAV over a loop vent any day.....and every new kitchen is on an island
when the builder blocks you in with micro lams and structure that you cant get a vent through what are you supposed to do?....in the old days (5 years ago) the builder would build you a spot to get out....now they wont...why? because they dont have to..AAV's are legal, so why add a drop or a bump out for a vent???
i dont think there are many new home plumbers here...most of the guys here are service/repair guys....id say 100% of new homes have a studor vent in them around here
id like to never use them(except for islands), but the builders wont let me
|
|
|
|
|
Author:
hj
$$$$$$$ They use AAVs because it is cheaper, even though they may NOT reduce the price of the plumbing job because they use them. It is also called "cutting corners" when you underbid the job.
Edited 1 times.
|
|
|
|
|
Author:
packy
careful wauk, AAV's are not legal everywhere. they are illegal in massachusetts.
|
|
|
|
|
Author:
SteamDaddy (NJ)
Only butchers use aav's in new construction. Theres no reason whatsoever when everything is wide open.
|
|
|
|
|
Author:
mr leak (CA)
AAV have been used throught Europe in all kinds of houses and projects They work fine and if inspected in your area may be allowed. Just because they are illegal in some areas does not mean anything more than they are not allowed. The laws of physics do not change with jurisdictions. Next quesation showers are to be 2 inch drains tub shower/ combos 1.5 and sinks 1.5
|
|
|
|
|
Author:
hj
quote; The laws of physics do not change with jurisdictions
Exactly! The laws of physics says a plumbing system can be subjected to both positive and negative pressures and an AAV can ONLY minimize negative pressures.
|
|
|
|
|
Author:
bernabeu (SC)
soooooooo ...... the a*****e built a million $ home to minimum code w/o using an architct to draw up a set of specifications ...... he deserves to 'get what the contractor gave him'
as P. T. Barnum once said: 'There is a fool born every minute, and two to take him.'
also: 'THIS WAY TO EGRESS' was a sign in the side-show to hurry people allong to the (you guessed it) EXIT !
- - - - - - -
Measure twice, cut once.
Retired Plumbers Local Union #1
|
|
|
|
|
Author:
chadschloss78 (MI)
I understand why everyone is against AAV's in general. I understand standard venting is the best way to go. what I don't understand is why no one is thinking about service work generated from sales and failed aav's? wouldn't this become easy money down the road to troubleshoot and fix?
|
|
|
|
|
Author:
johnjh2o (FL)
So what your saying is that you would do something that you felt was wrong just to produce more work in the future?
John
|
|
|
|
|
Author:
chadschloss78 (MI)
"So what your saying is that you would do something that you felt was wrong just to produce more work in the future?
John"
i'm not a plumber, and no, i wouldn't install an AAV if i didn't have to. I ran standard venting for all my plumbing things I have added and or remodeled. Plain and simple, it works if you have at least ONE standard vent. for how long is up in the air. They are code accepted in many places. you can do one of two things : you either fight for their removal, or you learn to change your way of thinking and adapt.
|
|
|
|
|
Author:
SwimRunPlumb (MI)
I agree with Wauk 100%.
They are in almost EVERY new home here. Now days, it's all about money 99% of the time. Time is money, and if you stand on your soap box and highground and refuse to use them, the next guy is just gonna come along and take your place.
With all that being said, I always limit them as best as possible. Like Wauk said, some guys will run one vent out of the house and AAV everything else. I would never do that. I will however put them on EVERY kitchen island I do and EVERY basement bathroom finish where there was no vent stubbed down. The very minute benefit of a natural vent in those two scenarios do not come anywhere close to outweighing the extra trouble it will require.
They are legal, the one natural vent required in the house relieves the positive pressure, and if it happens to go bad guess what, it can SIMPLY be unscrewed and replaced! Neat.
|
|
|
|
|
Author:
jblanche (WI)
Yep. If I were a plumber working as a sub for a builder, I'd give them code minimum.
For owner-occupants, the "right" way to do it is offer the customer a choice: Pay now or pay later. Tell them what it will cost to pipe the vent the old way, and what it will cost to put in an AAV and (your current rate to) service it later. Tell them when they can expect the AAV to go bad and what the symptoms are. You could even throw in a spare AAV, probably for far less than piping it.
The average customer doesn't care how it's done, but they do care whether they are going to have to pay more later. If they're only planning to be in the house for five years, maybe they'll want an AAV. But if they're going to be there for 30 years, they might want it done the old way.
Of course, you could do this all over the plumbing job. You could offer them PVC or cast iron for the drains, soldered copper or propress, or PEX for supply. And so on. The whole job could be like a visit to the plumbing showroom.
In large part it's up to the customer to specify what they want, and typically for residential work, that's "whatever works well and meets code." On the other hand, certain customers will appreciate being offered options, even if they cost more.
*******************************
Links to the State of Wisconsin Plumbing Code:
[dsps.wi.gov]
*******************************
I am not a plumber.
*******************************
|
|
|
|
|
Author:
sum (FL)
I would say that the main issue with AAV is that the average home owner probably don't understand or care how basic venting works. They just know it's necessary and I bet many don't get the need to balance the negative pressure. If they don't get it how would they know if something is broken?
This is not like a smoke alarm when the battery dies it beeps, and if it fails it doesn't mean you are subjected to something nasty immediately it might be a month. ten year or never for that next fire to make it prove itself. Whereas an AAV is being used every time you use the drain and it is often out of sight, may be the only way you know is the sniff sniff "honey what's that smell" and that might be ignored for months while they scratch their heads.
|
|
|
|
|
Author:
hj
quote; some have suggested they ought to be inspected every year or every 6 months.
That is the same recommendation for T&P valves and we all know how often they are done.
|
|
|
|
|
Author:
hj
There is not that much money involved and they have to be "tested" before anyone knows they have to be changed. When they do need to be changed they will go to a "big box store" and buy the cheapest replacement they have, or a pipe plug.
|
|
|
|
|
Author:
hj
When I bid a job, which I don't do anymore, I used MY specifications and if the customer wanted a cheaper price, I told them I would give them the names of cheaper plumbers.
|
|
|
|
|
Author:
hj
quote; That a lower initial construction cost is
That is the mantra of the IPC. If it is cheaper, or easier, it will be included in the "code".
|
|
|
|
|
Author:
SwimRunPlumb (MI)
Quote "When I bid a job, which I don't do anymore, I used MY specifications and if the customer wanted a cheaper price, I told them I would give them the names of cheaper plumbers."
Since I am not independently wealthy and cannot afford to pass off jobs to other plumbers, I will use code-compliant AAV's when it is not practical to run a natural vent.
|
|
|
|
|
Author:
waukeshaplumbing (WI)
'When I bid a job, which I don't do anymore, I used MY specifications and if the customer wanted a cheaper price, I told them I would give them the names of cheaper plumbers.'
I pretty much operate that way too....guess what? i now do 2 houses a year...high end / custom.....if you tried your idea in todays recession market you'd get no new houses
my plumbing bids on new homes typically cost $1,000 more.....ive lost jobs because i was $100 higher...when i called to explain to the builder that i was giving him $500 more in better quality and install he said, ' but you were $100 more'
builders have always been horribly cheap, but now they are at a new level of cheap....the only builders who will pay for my quality are the guys who build 2-3 houses a year.(or in a recession 1 house a year)
your concept on bidding may have worked 10 years ago....but it wouldnt work on new homes today...youd win 0 bids with that line...i agree with you, but its not todays market....todays market resembles 1980...i feel sorry for many of the homeowners who dont know what they are getting for their bargain
Edited 1 times.
|
|
|
|
|
Author:
waukeshaplumbing (WI)
'Only butchers use aav's in new construction. Theres no reason whatsoever when everything is wide open.'
on basic cookie cutter homes they are wide open...on high end or custom homes there are tons of places they can trap a sink with microlams and structure around it.
if the builder refuses to make a chase for your vent to get out do you walk off the job because your not a 'butcher'? do you lose $20,000-$40,000 + $100,000's of future work???
or do you shut up and use a studor vent since its legal
butcher is WAYYY to strong of a word to call me...i try to do my best, but i also need customers to stay in business....
|
|
|
|
|
Author:
hj
That is one reason I don't do it any more. When I finish a house I NEVER have to go back to correct problems, when I do it my way.
|
|
|
|
|
Author:
hj
When I cannot use a conventional vent, because of the structure, I have always found a way to use a "loop/yoke/island" vent.
|
|
|
|
|
Author:
bernabeu (SC)
- - - - - - -
Measure twice, cut once.
Retired Plumbers Local Union #1
|
|
|
|
|
Author:
SteamDaddy (NJ)
I love the way you throw these dollar amounts out there like they are to impress people..
What do you think was done in "High end" homes before AAV's came around? Do you really think you are the first plumber to do "High end" work?
Furthermore, I question just how high end the builder is that he refuses to do what is necessary to give you a non-mechanical venting system? It's laughable.
If and when those AAV's fail, its your name on it.
I've used them, they have their time and place, but new construction??? Again, I truly question how high end this builder really is
|
|
|
|
|
Author:
hj
I wonder if Wauk actually believes that the builder has reduced the price of the house because he is doing the plumbing cheaper by using AAVs? NOT!
|
|
|
|
and still disagrees with me that at least they will agree that AAV's certainly are not the "ideal" just as using sewage pumps are not the ideal over gravity.
