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Plbg.com also known as the PlumbingForum.com. The popular plumbing tips, remodel and advice forum and blog. Ask any toilet, sink, faucet, pump, water quality and plumbing related questions.
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Author:
cvcman
Ok here is a pic of the soil pipe uder the toilet. I have a few questions..
1) see how they notched out the joist, if I had to replace the flange or pie would I need to cut that joist secton righ out or just leave it alone ?
2) IF and I hope I dont but IF I pull the toilet and find the flange is broken or needs to be replaced etc, why couldnt I take a sazall with a cast blad and cut off the pipe right under the floor and fernco a new pvc flange wth a stub of pipe ??
Or is there a better way.
This doesnt seem to leak and I see no signs of water damage, just alot of brown paint from previous owner'
The floor is 1" thich plywood
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Author:
Paul48 (CT)
Take it out of the hub and either have a plumber re-pour a cast joint for you, or use a donut. Sister a 2-by alone side that notched joist. As it is, it could split, and leave you with a headache.
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Author:
cvcman
There is a 2 x 6 nailed and screwed to the notched out joint on the backside. Its about 3 ft lomg
What do you mean by a donut ? So I couldn't just cut the pipe off right under the floor and use a plastic flange and fernco it to the cast iron ??
How about the flanges that have like a 6 " pc off the bottom that slide inside the cast ?? I still need to know IF I have to use that weather I have 3 or 4 inch cast....
Do these soil pipes usually leak at the leaded joints ? Or do the flanges usually leak or only from the wax ring ??
Thx guys
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Author:
Paul48 (CT)
Fernco makes a rubber donut that would go into the hub to transition to PVC. Fernco is just the name of the manufacturer, but the word fernco has become synonimous with the plain rubber coupling with 2 hose clamps. What you want is a no-hub coupling. It's basically the same thing, but more structurally stable.Cast eats up sawzall blades, and doesn't like to cut straight. Mark it all the way around and take your time, if you go that route. Have a few blades on hand.
Edited 1 times.
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Author:
cvcman
i looked at the local Ace tonight at wax gaskets, they have the No1 that doesnt have a horn but it looks pretty skinney, the only thicker one has the plastic horn and I thought you guys said dont use that.
1)They also have a Fernco waxless seal that sticks to the bottom of the toilet horn and slides inside the soil pie, good or bad ??
now this "donut" would I cut the flange off under the floor from the basement like I said then get a PVC flange with the donut built on it ??
Do you have a pic of this thing ?
Again im hoping I wont have to do anything, do these leaded joints usually remain leak free ?? These are from 1955
Still dont know if I need 3" or 4" stuff guess I could buy both and return what I dont use...
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Author:
cvcman
also if i cut the pipe will the vibration from the sazall make the leaded joint below it leak or are they tougher than that ?
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Author:
packy
cut the pipe, the vibration will do no harm. use a 4 x 3 reducing no hub clamp. the existing flange is bad, that is why there is a bolt sticking thru the floor.
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Author:
hj
The flange is over the pipe so you have a 4" riser. A plumber would "break" the flange off, then install a new cast iron one using lead and oakum in a matter of a half hour or less. I am not sure what your abilities are to replace the flange.
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Author:
hj
The inside of the cast iron pipe is going to VERY rough, so you would have to "polish it" to get a seal with anything that slides into it.
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Author:
hj
It is VERY difficult to remove a lead joint, much less make it leak.
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Author:
Paul48 (CT)
packy is right.....just cut the pipe, forget the donut. No wax ring w/horn.....if you ever have to snake the toilet, you'll shred it anyway, or make the ring start to leak.
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Author:
cvcman
what about those Fernco waxless seals ??
Can you post a pic of the 3 to 4" no hub ???
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Author:
cvcman
humm is this usually the best way ?? Again maybe this flange is ok or if its broken cant i use a repair pc
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Author:
Paul48 (CT)
Click on the oval "PlumbingSupply.com" and search no-hub coupling.
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Author:
cvcman
isnt this the same idea as a Fernco connection ?? So IF i cut the cast iron pipe off I would then get a pvc flang that has a stub of pvc sticking out of the bottom ??
Would I need to add another pc of pvc to this then attach to my soil pipe or just attach with fernco or whatever direct to the bottom of the flange ??
Wouldnt I use a 4" ??
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Author:
Paul48 (CT)
The best way, as in all your posts, seems to be whatever you decide to do. Or, whatever your neighbors have done.
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Author:
cvcman
???? that really doesnt make any sense but ok..thanks anyway, I guess..
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Author:
cvcman
packy, why 4 x 3 ??
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Author:
cvcman
have you guys tried those Fernco waxless seals ?
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Author:
tanudev (IN)
good one
Edited 2 times.
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Author:
packy
4x3 is the way i would do it. 4" would also be fine.
you will need a short piece of pipe to go from the flange to the no hub clamp.
using a male ended flange (street) is not advised because the cut in the cast iron would need to be made at exactly the correct height.
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Author:
cvcman
So a 4 x 3 would have the 3" end going to the flange and the 4" going to the ci pipe right ? That's IF my pipe IS 4"
Does the pc of pipe coming off the flange glue with pvc cement ?
An your thoughts on the Fernco waxless seal ?
Thx
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Author:
hj
IT is the ONLY way I would do it, and it is the easiest way, anyway.
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Author:
cvcman
So hj you would do the flange and pvc to the ci ??
What do YOU think of the Fernco waxless seals ????
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Author:
sum (FL)
why was the pipe painted, was it decorative?
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Author:
hj
No, I would remove that flange, if necessary, and install a new one. What you have is the best, and most secure, option. NO PVC, and no waxless seal. I hope you realize that I could have installed a new flange in a lot less time than I have spent telling you what you should do.
Edited 1 times.
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Author:
cvcman
the previous owner painted everything..all the copper pipes going to the bathroom..who knows 80 yrs old and nothing better to do, its nice shiny brown paint...
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Author:
Paul48 (CT)
A bad case of "Thought Paralysis". They just discovered another Mayan calender, and it turns out you have longer to get this done than they thought. Maybe the other Mayans had visions of you pulling the toilet on 12-21-2012, and they knew it would create a ripple in the space-time continuum, so they stopped their calender at that point.
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Author:
sum (FL)
You still haven't pull the toilet?
Come on just do it.
I think you are saying if you pulled the toilet and it's a bad flange, then instead of replacing the flange by leading in a new one, you would opt to cut the pipe below and put in a new PVC assembly? Why?
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Author:
North Carolina Plumber (NC)
I could have pulled the toilet, replaced the flange, and reset the toilet in less time than we've spent discussing it.
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Author:
Paul48 (CT)
We put up raised ranches faster.
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Author:
joe plumber (NE)
cvcman,you are just playing around with everyone,aren't you ?
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Author:
cvcman
I just like seeing how long my posts go...keeps you guys on your toes..No I havent pulled it yet because I wanted to wait until I got my Saniflo in in case I had problems..Probably next week, again im just trying to make sure I know what to do if the flange is broken,,as for leading n a new flange,,,well it may be out of my area of expertise, just seems like cutting the pipe is something I can do no problem..
Im hoping i dont have to do a thing..again this one has never leaked that I can see, the wood is good all around and on the underside...
wishe you guys lived closer, hey we would probably get along great, you could come over and help me and I could.....watch 
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Author:
Paul48 (CT)
Years ago I worked with an old time mechanic from Maine. During a conversation, one day, he said,"Ya know, I could never be a good liar,I don't have the memory for it". Think about that one.
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Author:
hj
quote; you could come over and help me and I could.....watch
"help you" implies that you will be doing some of the work. We can replace it a lot faster if you are NOT helping.
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Author:
hj
John Wayne said, "If you always tell the truth, you do not have to remember the story you told yesterday".
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Author:
Paul48 (CT)
He may have stolen it from "The Duke", but I like both versions.
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Author:
cvcman
did I lie about something im not aware of Paul or was this about something else ??
New issue, when looking closer at the soil pipe from the basement, i can see where the flange looks like its leaded over the pipe, right up tight to the floor joist and just under the floor there is a spot in the leaded area about 1/2" that looks like it has been getting wet and its like a rusty looking crud there....so now even if the flange looks good when I pull the toilet I have this issue...so do I now cut the pipe, not worry about this spot, or burn the fr&&^^%ken house down
man I hate homeownership sometimes, I wish I was rich...
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Author:
cvcman
now I just got a call from Master Card fraud alert some scumbag is trying to use my card which is in my wallet.....man i cant catch a break here
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Author:
cvcman
hj, assume the price goes UP if I watch or help...by helping I would just run and get your coffee or whatever, I promiss not to touch anything..
Paul let me know if that liar comment was intended for me, just for the record I make it a habit to never lie to anyone about anything, heck I dont even try to lie when I get pulled over by the police for speeding...I try to ALWAYS tell the truth even if its not what the person wants to hear
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Author:
cvcman
I dont see water running down the pipe or anything even after flushing the upstairs toilet 3 tmes in a row...but that one spot does look damp and like rusty crud,,I told my wife if I craok sell this house and rent an apartment
She knows im fussy but i guess its my nature
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Author:
cvcman
Hj are you up yet ?? Send me your cell ph number
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Author:
sum (FL)
LOL.
I think he just overthinks. I remember I used to have these "oh crap what do I do now, look at this mess" marathon threads.
Seriously I don't know what I would have done without all the help I got here from you all.
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Author:
hj
They called him "The Duke" because he didn't want to be "The John".
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Author:
hj
IF there is a leak, AND the flange is not broken, all you have to do is recalk the lead joint. This flange, and the pipe size, are going to put you in therapy before you are done.
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Author:
hj
What about when your wife asks if her dress makes her look fat?
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Author:
cvcman
I've been in therpy,lol well at least if I tear into it and get into trouble I have the saniflo and shower all working, I just wanted to give myself a few weeks rest after the shower stall,flood, saniflo, washer drain pan etc before taking up THIS toilet.
Again not sure if I would call it a leak but it does look like at one time it had been wet. Nothing running down the pipe though
1) What would I caulk the joint with ?
2) Was this flange leaded on before it was set in place ??? It must have been because they can't pour lead upside down unless there is another way they did these
Like the above post said, I have learned a lot from you guys on this site and have seen how many people you help,maybe some ba## breaking sometimes but its good fun !
I dp appreciate all the different views and advise.
Thx ever so much
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Author:
Paul48 (CT)
cvcman..........I don't think you're a liar. I think your memory failed you when you gave, as a reason for not pulling the toilet, the fact that you were waiting to get your Saniflo in. You posted a while back that it was in and you could flush a loaf of bread down it.
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Author:
cvcman
Oh I see, well I guess I SHOULD have said I wanted to wait awhile after I had put the saniflo in before tacking this job
No my memory is all that is good on me and the saniflo IS in and has been for a few weeks and is working great.
Sorry I didn't state clearly
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Author:
cvcman
Hj , pls check my caulk question
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Author:
cvcman
Also if you look at my pic at the top of this post you can see the area I see right next to the joist
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Author:
hj
I get enough 800 calls without asking for the whole internet to ring me.
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Author:
cvcman
I know the feeling
Now what about caulking the joint
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Author:
hj
1. You do NOT "caulk" it, you "calk" it with a hammer and calking iron/chisel.
2. The lead is on TOP under the toilet. What you see is the oakum under the lead, which is what does most of the leak proofing and sealing.
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Author:
cvcman
Humm well there is no way to get to that part of the joint due to the joist.
If you look again at my pic that joint sure looks and feels like lead ???did they do something different ??
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Author:
joe plumber (NE)
cvcman ,if I were you ,I would call a plumber .It will probably be cheaper for you in the long run .It's not a big deal.Bite the bullet and call .Seems like there is never enough money to do it right the first time ,but always enough money to do it over right the second time .Jmo. It's simple repair .Or perhaps you still want to see how long this thread continues on .
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Author:
cvcman
my last job I called a plumber to do didnt turn out too well,lol
I think I can do this job but I just am trying to make sure I ask everything BEFORE I did into it....I appreciate your opinion though ...
And I may end up calling a plumber, its not the money, again I tend to not make out too well hiring work done by others even if they are so called experts....maybe I just have bad luck
I would like to understand how this was done originally because HJ said im seeing the okum but I really think its lead...if it is it must have been leaded before it was installed...
Guess it really doesnt matter at this point as im sure it wasnt done the way it is now but...
thx
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Author:
hj
quote; well there is no way to get to that part of the joint due to the joist.
You are starting to rattle my chain. The part by the joist is COMPLETELY IRRELEVENT, because any problem and its cure is ON TOP of the floor, so you do NOT "have to get to it".
Edited 1 times.
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Author:
hj
quote; ...if it is it must have been leaded before it was installed...
It was NEVER installed that way, and would have been impossible if someone tried. You do NOT know what you are looking at, and are completely misdiagnosing the situation. How about removing the toilet FIRST, and then see if ANYTHING has to be done to the flange.
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Author:
cvcman
just watched this, I could do this no problem ! [www.youtube.com]
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Author:
hj
Flanges are 1", 2", 3", 4", 5", and 6" 'thick' depending on which one fit the job best. 2" was the most common however, which is probably what yours is. I do not have the time or inclination to locate the picture again, but a lead joint is 1/2 wide and your picture showed the 1/8" to 1/4" gap on the BOTTOM of the flange. The ONLY way there could be lead there would be if the installer did not use oakum and filled the entire joint with lead, in which case he would have used a lot of it because it would have leaked out the bottom almost as fast as he poured it in the top.
Edited 1 times.
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Author:
hj
"A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Drink deep or touch not the Hyperion stream".
I had to stop watching about the time he started to put it back on. It was like watching a handyman do a professional's job.
1. I could not see anything wrong with the old flange that required replacing it.
2. He was correct to put the bolts at the strongest point, but THAT point was the TWO NOTCHES on the flange, NOT the curved slots.
3. The oakum's purpose is NOT to keep the lead from leaking out. The oakum "seals" the joint, and the the lead just holds the oakum in place and keeps it compressed.
4. Drilling the lead out is the time consuming way.
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Author:
cvcman
[i147.photobucket.com]
well if the lead is to hold the oakum ( which makes sense on the lower joints) in place how does it hold it in place when the oakum is below the lead at the top flange ?? Not being a wise a@@ im serious...I too thought the lead was a seal and to firm up the joint so it is stronger...
Most everything I have learned in my life came from asking and watching others except my schooling for toolmaking. I can weld, do carpentry work, repair watches and clocks, small engines, carb rebuilds, fix cars tractors and drive anything with an engine, all learned by asking and watch others who knew how to do it.
I have learned alot right here from HJ and the others. I know I ask a ton of quesions but thats how I will learn to hopefully do it the correct way and tackle the job myself. Yes I can hire everything done but there is something about being able to do it myself that feels better.
Thx again fellas you guys are the best
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Author:
cvcman
oh and I think he removed the flane not because it was damaged I think it was just for the video
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Author:
packy
i like the part of shoving oakum into the joint with his fingers.
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Author:
cvcman
so if....there is oakum in the joint on the top flange, then lead poured in the only way there really could be a leak around where the flange tail pc meets the riser pipe is IF the wax seal and the leaded seal is bad right ? Because...if I understand this correctly after the flange is done, the wax seal covers the entire leaded joint...right ?
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Author:
hj
There is a "lip" at the bottom of the flange. That keeps the oakum from pushing out through the bottom, after it is "packed down" the lead is poured on top of it, and it is also hammered down.
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Author:
hj
quote; something about being able to do it myself that feels better
"There is a way that seems(feels) right to a man, but the end thereof is destruction".
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Author:
hj
HE still did it the hard way, video or not. Maybe HE was being paid by the hour and needed a big paycheck that day.
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Author:
hj
In THEORY, yes.
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Author:
hj
Maybe he was using a formula, like, Insert the oakum finger tight, then give it 1 1/2 taps with a calking iron.
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Author:
cvcman
Good point..I see Lowes sells oiled oakum for 4.99 a bag. It looks like 3 pcs of horse hair braided together, do you keep it together or unbraid it ??
I also see they have the twist and set cast iron flanges, they look like you remove the old flange and insert this and turn it and it brings the threaded rubber gasket up the tapered flange to seal....
Maybe next week ill get into this....still dont see any drips or leakes from my ppe in the cellar, just that crusty looking rusty looking spot...ocd kicking in
hj, if i do need to remove the old flange you dont recomend doing it by drilling the lead like the video ???
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Author:
hj
quote; you dont recomend doing it by drilling the lead like the video
It works, but since people pay me by the hour, they don't appreciate paying me a couple of hundred dollars to drill holes when I can do it easier in a matter of minutes. What he did NOT show you was that after you drill a bunch of holes, you STILL have to "pick" the lead out between them which can take longer than drilling the holes. Whether an "insert" ANYTHING seals on your riser depends on how smooth it is, and cast iron drain lines are NEVER smooth after a few years. In fact, the corrosion could reduce the interior size of the pipe so the insert will not fit in the first place.
Edited 1 times.
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Author:
cvcman
care to share the better way
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Author:
cvcman
awhile back you guys were saying "cut the pipe and use a 3 x 4 no hum connection...IF and I say F I end up cutting the pipe, and mine is 4" we assume ( even though noone can agree on that ) would I use a 3" pvc flange, attach a pc of 3" pvc and have that go inside the 4" pipe a ways or have it stop at the 4" pipe ?
Seems like if it went in a ways would be better then connect the 3 with the 3 x 4 ?
I did find a chart online that gave the od dims of cast and it said for "no hub" cast the od of 4" would be like 4.380
Mine is (13" circ) 4.14 od so that would make it like very thin walled if its 4" cast....but still too big to be 3"...probably some fricken metric throw back junk off the Queen Mary
I stll would like to try the lead and oakum route IF I have to do something but im oping just replace the wax ring and im good....otherwise I need to hire hj to come and school me and im sure he is jumping at the chance to do that
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Author:
cvcman
Is there a size between 3" and 4" cast ??? There is no way this is 4" id if the od is 4.15 which it is, and the pipe it goes into is 14" circumference...
Hj don't read this because I know you are going to blow a gasket sorry in advance
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Author:
hj
quote; otherwise I need to hire hj to come and school me and im sure he is jumping at the chance to do that
The travel time would kill you, and we do like to keep some trade secrets otherwise EVERYONE will start doing plumbing. As I tell people, you can pay my price and I will be done in a matter of minutes, OR you can pay a "cheaper" person, who will take 2 or 3 times as long and you will pay a much greater "bottom line".
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Author:
hj
WHICH pipe are you measuring? If it is the one into the flange it IS 4" because there isn't any other size flange, and the flange will "FIT" it regardless of its o.d. And how could I NOT read it after all this time, if for no other reason than to see if you have capitulated.
Edited 1 times.
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Author:
cvcman
Good point... The pipe coming out of the floor right after the flange I assume... It is 4.15 " od, so is this still considered 4"??
This pipe then goes into a hub and if you measure the od of this pipe below the hub its an inch larger in circumference....
So if that pipe coming out of the floor is 4.15" od and this is 4"I'd it would have to be paper thin wall.
Ill take a better pic after I get home tonight stay tuned
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Author:
Paul48 (CT)
This is ridiculous......he just told you it's 4".Do the tile work, and hire a plumber for the flange.
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Author:
Paul48 (CT)
Charlotte Pipe and Foundry (800) 438-6091. Ask them
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Author:
cvcman
think anyone is there now ?
Paul, serious this is weird right ? I just checked my neighbors, his is exactlly the same which I assumed because they were built the same time by the same builder...
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Author:
Paul48 (CT)
It's 4" service weight, 4.30 OD.
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Author:
hj
#1. The tape is going around the pipe on an angle which gives a wrong dimension, although it is a larger dimension than the actual pipe.
#2. If the "hub" is threaded, it MUST be sch. 40 pipe size, and therefore IPS cast iron, which is a different "animal" than "hub and spigot" cast iron. I do NOT see that particular piece in the other photos.
3. You are tantalizing us. The middle hub is stamped "4 M", sometimes called "standard", and if so it is "medium" grade between XH and SV.
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Author:
cvcman
Well again I did it with a string too 13" maybe a 1/16" over..
There are 2 pcs used that have a threaded copper 1-1/2 drain connection.
So is the pipe that comes out of the floor 3" ?? Again there is no way it 4" I'd or I could put my finger thru the wall thickness
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Author:
cvcman
Hj, the "hub" is not threasef I said the pipe has a threaded connectuon female out the back, the hub just looks like a normal hub
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Author:
cvcman
Paul,so this pipe is 4"-d then it only has a wall thickness of .015 !!!! That's what it woukd be if its 4.30 od and 4" I'd...I can't imagine that being true but what do I know...I will tell you that pie is 13" circ no matter where I measure..that's the only thing I do know for sure
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Author:
cvcman
Opps I ment .150
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Author:
cvcman
Monday morning Paul, got em on speed dial
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Author:
cvcman
IF my flange IS bad and I dont want to cut it out or have it replaced with another leaded type are those repair ring any good ?? Or are they more of a bandaid ? The ones that look lke a solid thin ring that goes over the old flange I dont think would work if the flage is on top of the finished floor like it should be..how would you seal this type to the old flange, silicone ?
The other ones are like a 1/2 ring deal that slides under...
I was talking to the "plumbing expert" at the hardware about this when I was picking up my pvc for the shower and he said " if its leaking just wrap a bicycle tube around it and use sealing tape"
and you guys think im a hack....
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Author:
hj
You are assuming the i.d. IS 4", but it is a "nominal" dimension which usually changes according to the pipe wall thickness. It is like PVC pipes. Almost all 4" PVC has the same o.d., (there are a couple of exceptions), but the i.d. increases or decreases according to how thick the wall is. You are really "overthinking" this problem, especially since you will not even know IF you have a problem with the flange until you remove the toilet. There were VERY, VERY few 3" cast iron flanges used, and YOURS is not one of them. THat is obvious from its appearance under the floor.
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Author:
hj
quote; I was talking to the "plumbing expert" at the hardware about this
How old was this "expert"? Is he in high school or maybe he hasn't graduated from elementary school yet. No "EXPERT" would even suggest a repair like that.
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Author:
cvcman
yea he was a young woodchuck kid...why do they have people like that answering tech questions..
I looked at the screw I see sticking down thru the floor and its a lot smaller dia than the johnny bolt on the top side so I'm thinking maybe there is a repair flange or something on here.
Hj, when I pull it and if there is a repair flange and it looks ok can I just wax seal and go with it ?
Again we want to keep the same toilet, its old but nice and shiney and believe me it doesn't plug !
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Author:
hj
Pull it up and give us a picture of what you see, THEN we can advise what to do next. The bolt would typically be either 1/4" or 5/16" diameter. If could also just be "holding" the flange to the floor, and wouldn't that be hilarious after two weeks of discussion. It might be like the Greek philosophers who debated how many teeth a horse has, and after a couple weeks of vehement arguing, someone went outside and counted them.
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