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Author:
SwimRunPlumb (MI)
OK, I just installed my first compression fitting without pipe dope and my results were less than desirable.
It WAS fine, until I attempted to rotate it about 90 degrees. Without the dope on the pipe and ferule, it did not want to move very easily. When I finally did get it to rotate, it started leaking pretty good.
That was the first and last compression stop I will install without dope.
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Author:
packy
it is the lubricating quality of dope that accomplishes what you are doing. grease will work just as well and will not "set up" over the years.
why someone would argue that installing the fitting "dry" is a better way of doing it, leaves me puzzled.
the only thing i do agree with is not using teflon tape on a compression joint.
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Author:
bernabeu (SC)
they should NOT rotate after being tightened
if they need rotation, loosen FIRST, then retighten in proper position .... if it leaks then, it was probably OVER-TIGHTENED to begin with
bring it down square and tighten 1-1.5 turns ONLY
they depend on mechanical threads to 'squeeze' a compression ring (ferrule) into the copper/brass/plastic tube and against a bevelled 'seat' on the fitting (look close)
in many instances the tightening position will be 'awkward', so a little 'lubricant' on the mechanical threads will permit an easier 'make-up', however no 'lube' or 'dope' or TPFE tape should be necessary for a leak free joint
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Measure twice, cut once.
Retired Plumbers Local Union #1
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Author:
SwimRunPlumb (MI)
Bernabeu, while I appreciate and respect your knowledge and advice, you certainly have the uncanny ability to over-complicate things.
I am a plumber, and I have doped and rotated compression stops for over 10 years with no problems.
If you guys do not use dope or grease, then rotating is probably not a good idea, as I have just learned. But, with all of the doped stops I have put on over the years, I have never had a problem spinning them a little.
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Author:
cvcman
so how did you stop the leak ?? Why are you rotating AFTER it tight ??
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Author:
SwimRunPlumb (MI)
I tightened it a little more to stop the drip, which makes me question the over-tightening concern.
Sometimes I rotate stops to take the slack out of braided supplies that are a little long. I will turn closet supplies 90 degrees towards the toilet to avoid kinks and spirals.
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Author:
RWP (SD)
Insert the tubing to the stop then back off 1/8". Tighten the compression nut. As you tighten the nut the sleeve compresses and the tubing moves into the joint. If there is no room for the tubing to move into the joint the sleeve gets distorted and leaks occur. Never rotate a compression joint without loosening the compression nut first.
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Retired after 50 years of plumbing and heating.
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Author:
joe plumber (NE)
Turning the stop after you tighten the nut should never be done without loosening the nut first.Thats just asking for trouble,in my opinion.
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Author:
LemonPlumber (FL)
whoo?rotate after position tightened???one stop wrench and position set and never pipe nope brass craft ever!!!
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Author:
mr leak (CA)
Compression fittings should be tightened and not rotated after that. A drop of lubricant works fine on the threads only. If you want to reposition the "clock position" of the angle stop loosen the nut to allow it to turn. Rather than force the angle stop position to better accomodate the water supply it is often looped into a pig tail loop to "waste" the length, i.e.shorten it. You don't put pipe dope on compression fittings plain and simple, otherwise you do not understand the mechanics of a compression fitting Sorry
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Author:
packy
SwimRunPlumb, i looks like it is you and i against the rest.
i use grease and i also reposition the stop after tightening. (not all of them)
the next leak i have will be my first.
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Author:
hj
You loosen the nut before rotating it, and/or rotating it changes the seal so you have to tighten it again. The problem is the operator NOT the valve.
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Author:
hj
quote; I am a plumber, and I have doped and rotated compression stops for over 10 years with no problems.
So am I, but for 60 years, and I have never doped, or greased" a compression joint. I install the valves pointing in the direction I want them before I tighten them, but do make slight adjustments, (90 degress is NOT a slight adjustment), if necessary afterwards without causing leaks.
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Author:
hj
quote; I will turn closet supplies 90 degrees towards the toilet to avoid kinks and spirals.
So do I, but I do it BEFORE I tighten the compression joint.
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Author:
hj
quote; Retired after 50 years of plumbing and heating.
NOT retired after 60+ years of plumbing and heating. I ALWAYS bottom the tubing into the stop before tightening it. I guess this subject shows that there are MANY ways to do it "correctly".
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Author:
hj
IF you do not want to "loosen" the compression nut to rotate it, then put a wrench on the compression nut also and "rotate" it while you turn the valve to prevent the valve's rotation from overtightening the nut by another 1/4 turn.
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Author:
SwimRunPlumb (MI)
mr. leak- spiraling it into a pig tail is exactly what I am trying to avoid, I don't think that looks good.
hj, yes, I try and rotate in advance whenever possible, 90 degrees is probably a bit extreme, but, it is perfectly fine if I do go that far. Yes, I probably snug it up a little after I move it.
The problem is, you don't always know how much slack you are going to have on faucets and toilets.
I move pex stops also. I suppose that is a problem too? 
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Author:
bernabeu (SC)
this thread shows, unfortuneately, that (residential) plumbing may no longer be a skilled trade
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Measure twice, cut once.
Retired Plumbers Local Union #1
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Author:
SwimRunPlumb (MI)
It also shows that you can't teach an old dog new tricks.
It's funny to me that some of you are so convinced that YOUR way is the only way, even though many (if not most) of us have done it a different way all our careers with success.
Bernabeu, I will admit, I do not have any skill if counting the turns on gas pipe or compression fittings is what qualifies a "skilled tradesman".
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Author:
hj
quote; I do not have any skill if counting the turns on gas pipe or compression fittings is what qualifies a "skilled tradesman".
Actually, that would be a sign of a DIYer or handyman, since they would NOT know how tight to make a connection. But "counting turns" is a good way to HAVE, or create, a leak because all threads are not created equal.
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Author:
SwimRunPlumb (MI)
Well hj, that is exactly what a few on here propose is the "proper" way to do it.
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Author:
hj
If unable to do it that way, then using oil, grease, or compound may be YOUR, or THEIR, correct way.
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Author:
bernabeu (SC)
y'all are proving my point !
of course one does not count turns to ascertain 'tightness'
one counts turns to 'tightness' to verify that one's dies are cutting a thread within tolerances
ps. all NPT fittings 1/8" - 2" will be tapped for EXACTLY 7 threads .... FOR A REASON
count them for yourselves
pps. hit a nerve, did i ?
ppps. and yes, boss, my s***t don't stink, and my joints don't leak
pppps. [www.youtube.com]
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Measure twice, cut once.
Retired Plumbers Local Union #1
Edited 1 times.
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Author:
hj
quote; will be tapped for EXACTLY 7 threads .... FOR A REASON
The reason being that it is the "width" of a die's segment and if it is run onto the pipe further, all it will do is produce a longer "running thread".
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Author:
bernabeu (SC)
wrong:
a 1/2 npt die (and also a 3/4) is 14 tpi and should cut a 11 'tooth' thread 3/4 long on the male pipe ...... this thread (ideally) would screw into the female fitting 7 turns = 1/2" 'make-up'
all npt 1/8-2 should make-up (in an ideal world) 7 turns ... which is why you will see 7 threads in any 1/8-2 fitting
is tight enough good 'nuff? ... sure .... but i like to aim for perfect and settle for very good
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Measure twice, cut once.
Retired Plumbers Local Union #1
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Author:
SwimRunPlumb (MI)
Your "local" has flooded your mind with trivial and pointless information in an effort to brainwash you into believing that their way is the only way. This in effect justifies all the extra time it takes you to accomplish simple tasks.
It reminds me of the union guy that my old boss hired in that took twice as long to do everything. He was actually writing formulas on the wall to figure out lengths of 1.5" pvc to run a tub drain that had one 45 degree offset. I told him to get off the ladder. He then asked me how I was going to figure out the length of the pieces. I said with my brain.
You don't always have to mix blue and yellow to get green, you can just buy the green. Don't over think everything.
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Author:
hj
quote; this thread shows, unfortuneately, that (residential) plumbing may no longer be a skilled trade
don't blame me. I'm not the one who started using PEX tubing, and I still don't. It probably really started with the polybutylene tubing when they could send any high school kid to string it once the journeyman drilled the holes and set the fixture stubs.
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Author:
bernabeu (SC)
Quote:This in effect justifies all the extra time it takes you to accomplish simple tasks.
i have actually been fired from jobs (in SC after i retired) because i made the non-union workers look bad
i can trim out a 3.5 bath home ALONE in 8 hours (using speedy connectors, not hoses)
all the 'book learning' was at night in school during apprenticeship in order to perform the tasks EFFICIENTLY through PROPER installation W/O call backs
once you learn how to do it 'by the book' you can then aim for perfect (w/o even thinking) and then settle for good - adequate
if you are flying by the seat of your pants ????
you would not make one day plumbing a hi-rise
a 1" flushometer toilet supply 'blowout' caused by an overtightened fitting with poor threads is totally different on the 14th floor than a 3/8" Glacier Bay HD piece of junk in a McMansion with 'engineered' flooring
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Measure twice, cut once.
Retired Plumbers Local Union #1
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Author:
bernabeu (SC)
ps.
i am really curious to see you hold up a section of 8" A-106 sch. 80 pipe as a 'pointer piece'
how about a 42' length of 4" PVC ( yes .... 42' is a true actual length) ?
or do you simply cut it by eye and bend/force it so it fits ?
take some freakin PRIDE IN YOUR WORK
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Measure twice, cut once.
Retired Plumbers Local Union #1
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Author:
dlh (TX)
all i can say is i think the union has the best training but other than that they are completely worthless as are most (not all) of the plumbers that come from them
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PLUMBERS "Protecting The Health Of The Nation"
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Author:
hj
I have seen 42' sections of steel pipe, but PVC was always a multiple of 20'.
Edited 1 times.
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Author:
hj
quote; are most (not all) of the plumbers that come from them
That is true of the plumbers who live "on the bench", because they are looking for the cushy jobs where they can show up in the morning and disappear for the day. When I came here the union tried its best to run me out of town and back to Chicago. One of the members asked why they did not like Chicago plumbers, and he was told, "because they think they are the best plumbers in the country". The guy replied, "But they are". They kept changing the rules for transfer into the union to make sure I did not qualify.
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Author:
bernabeu (SC)
food for thought:
how can you do it adequately when you don't know how to do it right?
the fact that it does not leak right now does NOT mean that it will not leak tomorrow
to (hopefully) prevent tomorrows leaks one must have the knowledge AND the ability AND the 'will' to do it right the first time
? how can one obtain 5 years of classroom and on-the-job training w/o apprenticeship ?
? how can one there be apprenticeships w/o unions ?
'nuff said ..... real plumbers 'know the deal'
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Measure twice, cut once.
Retired Plumbers Local Union #1
Edited 1 times.
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Author:
dlh (TX)
"? how can one there be apprenticeships w/o unions ? "
simple. it is called working and training under a journeyman or master.
there is absolutely no reason for unions in today's society !
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PLUMBERS "Protecting The Health Of The Nation"
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Author:
bernabeu (SC)
perhaps swimrunplumb should do the training?
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why would such a simple question be offensive?
Quote:I am a plumber, and I have doped and rotated compression stops for over 10 years with no problems.
...this from the OP 
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Measure twice, cut once.
Retired Plumbers Local Union #1
Edited 3 times.
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Author:
hj
That is not entirely true. When I was an apprentice, the school taught me the things I would NOT romally learn "on the job" with the average company. This training has held me in good stead all these years. But, there are schools that can teach these things which are not affiliated with a union. The benefit of the union school was that I did NOT have to pay for the classes, I WAS PAID for attending them.
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Author:
SwimRunPlumb (MI)
The thing you are failing to acknowledge Bernabeu is that there are no negative effects of what I am doing (packy does it also), and every plumber I have ever known does it. I know this because back when we used to use actual chrome plated copper supplies, we would rotate the stop, put the supply in and then rotate it back (on lavs).
We ALL did this on hundreds and hundreds of houses and condos! I don't care what you've read in a book, I have actually done it with ZERO negative results. The world is not flat my friend.
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Author:
bernabeu (SC)
what you are failing to see is that there is absolutely no reason to rotate the stop at all
the 'speedy' is bent/cut to fit and inserted 'deep into' the angle stop valve's 'compression well', rolled into alignment with the faucet tail, raised up (about 1/8"), tightened at both ends ...... done
the 'older' and/or 'real' stops had a 'bottomless' well for this exact purpose (not really bottomless, but deep enough for this installation technique)
if you had spent a few extra minutes actually LOOKING at one (!?wasted time!?) you would have saved about 1/2 - 1 minute on every one you installed after that
1 - ? time to apply dope
2 - ? time to roll stop
3 - ? time to retighten stop
multiplied by 70-100 basins in a 30 story hi-rise = you are fired
oops ..... there's that nasty thing called training again
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Measure twice, cut once.
Retired Plumbers Local Union #1
Edited 1 times.
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Author:
bernabeu (SC)
i repeat ..... this very discussion proves my point (at least re: residential)
otherwise known as "B" book
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Measure twice, cut once.
Retired Plumbers Local Union #1
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Author:
dlh (TX)
swim, we never said it was wrong to use dope or grease we just said it is not necessary which it is not. and there should be no reason to spin a valve once it is installed. i normally look at what i need before i install it and i have enough knowledge and experience i almost always get it right or at least right enough to make it work and look ok
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PLUMBERS "Protecting The Health Of The Nation"
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Author:
hj
quote; we would rotate the stop, put the supply in and then rotate it back (on lavs).
When I did it, I lined the stop up, bent the supply, then put the supply into the valve. I NEVER rotated the valve first.
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Author:
hj
That sounds like something Bart Simpson would say when the instructor asked him a question about calculating a rolling offset.
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Author:
bernabeu (SC)
hj;
1.41
(forgot how to 'calc' a roll)
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Measure twice, cut once.
Retired Plumbers Local Union #1
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Author:
LemonPlumber (FL)
HJ?break the tubing off?you could not expect to rotate either the front side of or both. On any stop I installed, without the tubing rotating with it!!! Twisting tubing, if it was on a joint I made?
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Author:
hj
quote; On any stop I installed, without the tubing rotating with it!!!
IF the tubing "rotates" you are either using Sharkbite fittings in the wall or PEX. Sweated copper tubing WILL NOT rotate, unless you damage it.
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Author:
hj
Or 4 1/4" per 3", 8 1/2" for 6", 12 3/4" for 9", and 17" for a foot. Rolling an offset means you have to use the Pythagoian Theory twice. One for the rise, and then for the lateral offset.
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Author:
LemonPlumber (FL)
my point!I plumb copper.the compression stop is secure to the tubing.Rotation with out separating the union made// will\\!!!!! Damage the tubing!!!!!No exceptions.I follow around other plumbers who,s stops compression fitting green.I am proud to look at my work after many years understanding the tubing will be changed as the new finish stop is provided for.Can other plumbers rely on light compression.most certainly they do.when you break out the twelve inch wrenches and understand the tubing Ferrell has completely compressed the tubing not to be remade.lemon was there.I have seen only one brass craft over tightened failure.Not mine.but hundreds of not tight enough failures. Again we work the tubing.so many could rotate a compression fitting.I assume it is failed unless I remove and remake this brass compression install.
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Author:
bernabeu (SC)
like i said: 1 to 1.5 turns after 'square contact' ..... oops, that doggone training thingy again
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Measure twice, cut once.
Retired Plumbers Local Union #1
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Author:
SwimRunPlumb (MI)
Yes, because obviously it requires special union training to install a compression stop.
I wonder what would happen if I didn't count the turns? Oh yeah, nothing.
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Author:
bernabeu (SC)
if your customers are satisfied with 1/2 soles, who am i to argue ?
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Measure twice, cut once.
Retired Plumbers Local Union #1
Edited 2 times.
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