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Author:
DGreg (MO)
I'm really confused about something and I'm hoping someone here can help me.
I'm not afraid of a DIY project but I have no experience in plumbing and a lot of respect for the power of pressurized water so I want to make sure I get a second opinion on something, because the more I dig in the more I'm wondering what I'm getting myself into.
Background:
We moved into a 25 year old house in St. Louis, MO 2 years ago and since then have noticed that the two showers are pretty... lackluster. Not to the point of being unusable, but they have significantly less flow than showers I have used previously and it does seem like it takes longer to get clean. My reasoning is that the plumbing in the house is probably generally fine - how much can go wrong with a straight shot of copper? - so my suspicion is that the issue is more around the shower/knob.
So I went into a local Lowes and was told it could be the cartridge. Reportedly they can get a bit clogged after 20+ years. Now, as the fixtures in the house leave something to be desired anyway, I picked up a kit (a Delta Carlisle 172939-I) that I was told had "everything I need" to replace my Moen shower set.
Today:
So I'm looking at the Delta box and I see that it includes a "universal rough" (a kind of box with 4 water connectors on it, presumably Hot, Cold, Shower, and a pressure/air line), and a cartridge that looks like it plugs in to that universal rough.
To make a long story a bit longer, my questions are:
1. Should I have been looking somewhere else for the source of my problems?
2. Assuming I'm safe to continue, should I have the new "universal rough" installed?
2a. Will a Delta cartridge fit in what is presumably a Moen "universal rough"?
2b. If the answer to "2a" is "No", would everyone recommend I find myself a (hopefully cheap) local plumber to do the work for me if I have never dealt with plumbing myself?
Any help is greatly appreciated! Let me know if you need any more info.
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Author:
Fixitangel (NC)
The first thing I would check is the showerhead.. perhaps mineral buildup has reduced the flow?
Swapping out a cartridge on the same make and model is relatively do-able. Swapping out the Whole Shower Valve from a Moen to a Delta is a whole 'nuther bag of monkeys. I would not attempt it unless I was absoutely sure it was necessary, AND I wanted to cut a hole in the backside wall.
Try a different shower head, if that doesn't help call a pro.
P.S. Are you on well water? Any whole house filters in the basement?
Edited 2 times.
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Author:
Wheelchair
And if its not the showerhead, Make sure that you turn the water off before servicing the value (relieve the pressure too). From there, follow the instructions on the kits. I truly hope that its not a generic kit, but a Factory OEM KIT, with original parts.
Let the game begin.....
Best Wishes
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Author:
NICK (CA)
Definitely check the shower heads if you haven't. they can have debris built up in them, hard water and flow restrictors which are even easier to block. You may be trying to take on something that is completely unnecessary. Pull the heads off and see how the flow is with nothing there. Assuming the pressure is ok, a lot of shower problems are in the head or even the valve or cartridge.
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Author:
DGreg (MO)
Taking a look at the shower head was my first guess too - I did take off the shower head and fully disassembled it before heading to Lowes but it was clean as a whistle (and I tried it again before heading in, just in case I knocked something loose I didn't see). The shower head itself appears relatively new, I'm guessing the previous owners put it in around the time they wanted to sell the house.
And no, I am not on a well - just the regular city water supply.
So is the cartridge the next step?
It looks like the old shower knob was a Moen so I'm not sure if the thing the cartridge plugs into is a Moen or a universal type - or even if there is such a thing as a universal... whatever it's called. Looking at the thing in the box I'm guessing that to put a new one in would require me to cut a hole in the wall, which is obviously something I'd like to avoid. Do you suppose I can just plug and play with the cartridge in the shower kit?
PS. The "shower kit" as I call it has a shower head, the "universal rough", a cartridge, and a dual-lever shower knob (one for flow, one for temperature). I'm guessing I must use the Delta cartridge to make the dual-lever shower knob work... is that assumption correct?
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Author:
LemonPlumber (FL)
Where the twenty year old moen could be repaired with a plumber.the box sold you a in wall valve replacement and I would never advise you to try to replace this unless you have really good flood/home owners insurance.You might try looking on the moen web site for advise on older moen valves using the 1225 b cart.I would first remove the cart with the water off and see how the water flows to the valve body.At the age off the valve you might consider the upgrade to the new ///pressure balanced\\\delta.but this is not a first timer afraid of pressure failure type job.sorry.
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Author:
Fixitangel (NC)
quote: It looks like the old shower knob was a Moen so I'm not sure if the thing the cartridge plugs into is a Moen or a universal type - or even if there is such a thing as a universal."
The thing the cartridge plugs into is the "brand name", be it Moen, Delta, etc. The parts that are available are either brand name (OEM) parts, or from a "generic" or 2nd party aftermarket mfg. The parts are not interchagable between Moen and Delta.
Have you checked your house pressure? Got teenagers? If swapping out the showerhead did not help, I would get a replacement cartridge for the model you have, and be sure to "burp" the water on for a second or two to flush any debirs out of the pipes before installing a new cart.
Best Wishes.
Edited 1 times.
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Author:
Paul48 (CT)
Call a plumber......Even getting the cartridge out can be a real challenge.
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Author:
NICK (CA)
you say that you checked the shower head and it was clean. that doesn't mean that it flows good. did you actually turn the water on with the head off and see how it flows from the shower arm? You shouldnt attempt to install a new unit. call a plumber and it may save you a lot of aggravation and money.
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Author:
hj
The term "universal cartridge" means it has multiple connection capabilities and fits all the Delta cartridges. It does NOT mean it fits "every" manufacturer's valve. In fact, it fits NONE of them. In the first place the Moen valve is repairable, IF the problem is in the valve. Replacing the valve without cutting a hole in the wall may, or may not, be possible depending on how the old valve is connected to the piping, but it would seldom be a DIY job.
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Author:
hj
Quit trying to make the Delta cartridge fit the Moen valve. It will NOT. But you could have a Moentrol valve with a bad balancing spool. As a practical matter, changing the valve will probably NOT change the pressure. You do not know anything about plumbing so call a plumber to diagnose your problem and fix it.
Edited 1 times.
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Author:
Paul48 (CT)
I'll post this, so you can see what I'm talking about when I say...Call a plumber [www.youtube.com]
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Author:
hj
AFTER you tap the core, put a nut on the bolt and a few 3/4" washers. Put the bolt into the core, it only has to go a short way, then align the washers with the valve body, and tighten the nut against them. Once the core is pulled into the washer it will be "free" and can be removed easily. NO "squeaking" and NO "woos".
Edited 1 times.
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Author:
Paul48 (CT)
Yep.......An "Easy" cartridge swap 
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Author:
LemonPlumber (FL)
Hj?I would love that.if only that could be failure points.but little fragments of rubber or weak brass can deal blows even I,have had to deal with.Just feel this poster will live with the bill better than the long term learning experience.
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Author:
hj
I have five different Moen cartridge removal tools, and occassionally I need more than one of them to extract a stem.
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Author:
DGreg (MO)
Ok - don't go for the universal bit without a plumber and the cartridge will not fit in the Moen part. Thanks for the advice.
Now, with that said, I would still like to try replacing the cartridge - with a Moen cartridge. Water flow seems to be fine everywhere else in the house and having an unfinished basement beneath the shower I can follow the water lines from source to shower and don't see anything that should be an issue, so the cartridge really is the next logical troubleshooting spot. I feel comfortable attempting this task.
And with THAT said... I'm still interested in using the new shower head and trim (? is that the right word? The temperature dial and plate) I bought as they are nicer than what's there already. So the $300 question is: will Delta "trim" work with a Moen cartridge? The temperature knob deal has both a flow lever and a temperature lever and that makes me wonder. If not it sounds like I'm definitely going to have to call a plumber.
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Author:
Paul48 (CT)
No....The Delta trim will not work with Moen. Take it back and get your money back.Get a Moen cartridge remover tool, and give it shot. Is there more than one shower in the house?
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Author:
NICK (CA)
If it is a moen 1200 cartridge and its been in there for awhile, dont be surprised when you pull it and you only get the core out. there will probably be a sleeve left in the body. Read the directions about pulling out this other part of the cartridge. The pullers from the box stores may be more difficult to do this. Not worth a one time pull, but if you could get your hands on an "ona" puller, it is an awesome tool.
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Author:
hj
hen we said the Delat universal will not work with the Moen valve, we meant NOTHING is compatible between the two brands. In fact, you could not find two less compatible faucets. Depending on the model Moen valve, you may need an additional part besides the cartridge, since the cartridge would seldom create a flow problem. Remove the large trim ring and take a picture of the faucet body, then show it to us.
Edited 1 times.
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Author:
hj
If it is the one I think it is, then it is the LAST one I try after using all the others, because once it is inserted, you either get the stem our or replace the faucet, since it cannot be removed from the faucet until the part comes out.
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Author:
LemonPlumber (FL)
Dgreg post a picture and find help.you will never find enough general knowledge to fix the unknown.
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