I know type L is thicker/more expensive, but holding them side by side I could not visually see a significant difference. I did notice in cutting type L and M pipes, the pipe cutter seems to cut through type M much quicker.

What is the difference in the life expectancies of these two types of pipes?

type "M" is illegal in massachusetts for water pipes.
OK to use it for heating systems.

Hard to put a number on life expectancy. If a system is well designed and well installed, so that turbulence and velocity are not excessive; and then if there are not water chemistry issues, then type M should last for 50 years plus. If there are any issues, then L would last longer that M, who knows by how much.

Plenty of housed built here with M, no reports of any long term issues...yet.

If you have some condition which will eat away at copper tubing, then "L" will last longer because it is thicker. But we have been using "M" in residences since the 60's and there have been few problems with it. And most of them have been due to poor installation.

Ream the pipe to reduce turbulence. Be sure pipes are not undersized to to reduce velocity.

i only install M and have never had problems...once in a while i get a customer who asks for L, but now days everything is Pex....even the millionaires wont pay for copper anymore

i have type D in my house (legal in the late 70's)...it has already had 1 pin hole....type D lasts about 25-40 years+, so i assume type M will last any ones lifetime..no need for type L unless you plan on living to 120

type D ? never heard of that. there is only k, l, m, and dwv used in plumbing

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PLUMBERS "Protecting The Health Of The Nation"

I believe type D copper is an import (metric) not a standard US product. Never seen it before, but heard of it. Lots of extinct pipe types such as the 11/16" soft copper used in the 40's and 50's.



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It depends on water quality.



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SteamDaddy, what depends on water quality? Please explain.

Minimal!

That type M copper will last anyone's lifetime. (Waukesha's quote)

Where did you find type "D"? I do not remember ever hearing of it, (even in apprentice school as a thing to avoid, like Orangeburg sewer pipe), and it was NEVER sold in the Chicago area, for any purpose. It might be the same as refrigeration ACR tubing.



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Metric tubing would NEVER work with fractional size fittings.

They also said polybutylene would last a lifetime, and they are now saying that PEX will, so who knows what is a "lifetime".

up here, the only reason they pulled Poly_B was on account of the cancer-carrying properties in that certain type of plastic.
Many mobiles still have it, and it's like pulling hen's teeth to replace it until I hand my clients the "official" notice from the government as to why it was pulled from the market.
Most poly_B is replaced in dribs & drabs as customers have problems and money for upgrades.

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quote; up here, the only reason they pulled Poly_B was on account of the cancer-carrying properties in that certain type of plastic.

Down here, it was because failure of the fittings AND pipe caused the bankruptcy of countless plumbing and insurance companies, along with the manufacturer of the resin. I NEVER heard ANYTHING about "cancer-carrying properties" being a factor.

Initially when I was a plumbing apprentice and then a plumber we only used type K copper. I started my state indentured plumbing apprenticeship working for the County of Los Angeles Mechanical Department (where money was never an object i.e. taxpayers got screwed daily).

Yet I saw MANY copper leaks with type K copper pipes which as all of plumbers on this forum know is the thickest copper pipe.

Places such as the Van Nuys Court building which wasn't a very old building had to be replumbed with new copper pipes because of the many leaks that developed just a few years after construction. They determined those leaks were due to improper electrical grounding.

Places such as the famous Music Center we had to replace type k drains after just a few years of use (low pH caused that condition). I could go on and on, I guess my point being that I saw a lot of type K copper failure.

Why am I mentioning this besides my ego?

Because I'm with hj and some others on this and I am speaking from lots of experience with all thicknesses of copper pipes.

To me with above ground pipes IF copper pipe has no electrical grounding issues, and IF copper pipe is only moving water with no water quality issues (such as no low pH) and so on THEN copper is a great piping material to use AND type M (where legally allowed) is the way to go.

Will type L and K "last longer than type M copper?"

Most certainly ........ however IF the copper pipe will eventually leak......THEN it might not be a wise decision to use copper pipes at all because it is well established that copper is toxic to ingest in high dosage.

I would prefer that if my pipes are being eaten up (therefor I am drinking copper itself) that I am warned earlier rather than later.

Maybe a crazy way to look at why type M is actually "better" and so call me crazy but that's how I am now looking at it.

To me if type M won't last I don't want to use copper piping at all.

More on copper toxicity:
[en.wikipedia.org]

I agree that metric and standard wouldn't mix, hj. Simply stating that I've heard of it, but never seen it. It may be another mythological or misunderstood pipe. I also agree that without the earlier mentioned variables, that types M, L and K pipes are fine when properly installed. I prefer type L, when given a choice.

There are two reasons I posted the question.

First, I went ahead and redid some of the supply lines previously done by plumbers I hired, in each case, as I redid them, I replaced the type M with type L because I just assumed they were better, and with the amount of time I was spending in doing all these projects, the cost difference between type L and type M was insignificant in comparision.

As a result, I end up with a pretty large pile of type M and some type L pipes. Sometimes I needed a short piece so I went back to the pile to cut myself one, and it sort of bothered me that I could not tell which is type L and which is type M by visually looking at the cross section of the pipe. One does not look significantly thicker than the other. I had to look at the side of the tubing whether it's red or blue to tell.

Second, in the process of notching some wood studs in close quarters using a recipricating saw, I accidentally marred a copper pipe with it (imagine using an angle grinder and you slipped and it landed on a pipe still spinning at full speed), and I don't know if I have weakened the pipe enough that I need to redo that section. I will post a picture later for the verdict.

i can tell by the feel of the pipe, L is a bit heavier but mostly it is the color of the writing on it.

if you nicked/marred a piece of copper its integrity has been compromised and will most likely cause a leak in the future.

i have seen many pipes where someone started to cut it then decided on a different measurement and with no more than a half turn of the cutters they guaranteed a future leak

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PLUMBERS "Protecting The Health Of The Nation"

Again I agree with hj regarding polybutylene and the lack of links to cancer.

Shell was the sole manufacturer of the resin for polybutylene (unlike polyethylene which has many foreign resin manufacturers).

Yes, there were many mistakes made initially with p.b. such as the acetal fittings had issues as well as no warnings were initially given regarding using p.b. in areas of high concentrations of chlorine in the water. Polybutylene should never have been installed where high amounts of chlorine in water where present or in recirculation systems where chlorine was present.

Today?

Polybutylene pipe is continuing to show growth year after year in a number of other countries.

How is that possible since Shell decided to no longer offer it in litigious U.S.?

Maybe those other countries are more into cancer avoidance?

In countries such Spain, the United Kingdom, Korea and so on polybutylene piping is being installed a lot these days.

Speaking of carcinogens.....as I understand it the EPA has listed vinyl chloride, an element of PVC, as a carcinogen.

It may be only a matter of time before PVC and CPVC become illegal in the U.S. ?

Response to vic re: Speaking of carcinogens.....as I understand it the EPA has listed vinyl chloride, an element of PVC, as a carcinogen.
It may be only a matter of time before PVC and CPVC become illegal in the U.S. ?

I have come across a number of customers who are going 'green' and have been self-educated on PVC and it's effects on the environment. They are usually architects, engineers, etc. who are familiar with building design and materials. These folks shown an interest in petitioning the government for more 'natural' types of materials to be mandated. With the methods of production and processing aside, they believe that by bringing back clay/terra cotta sewers and alternative plastic above ground piping can influence our health and the health of the planet.
I guess when the changes come we will have to change with them.

Over time, you get the "feel" for the tubing types and can tell just by the weight, even for short pieces, which is which. But there is a definite difference in wall thickness that you can see by comparing the two.

quote; It may be only a matter of time before PVC and CPVC become illegal in the U.S. ?

And with copper ingestion being "harmful", maybe we will have to stop being "plumbers" and become "coopers" and go back to making wood pipes.

quote; they believe that by bringing back clay/terra cotta sewers and alternative plastic above ground piping

I do not know anyone who ingests "sewer water" so the type of material for drains should have ZERO effect on a person's health. But it could be the next crusade for "Nader and his raiders", because if they do not find something to pursue, they might have to actually get a job.

For the record I enjoy and prefer having copper for my own home's drinking water.

I did wish to warn those that have aggressive water, improper electrical grounding and other issues that cause copper pipes to leak that most likely they are ingesting a toxic amount of copper (according to EPA standards)

To me, as with most things, moderation is the spice of life.

I know very little about copper poisoning although I do know that we need many compounds in tiny amounts for health (such as we do know that we need small amounts of copper) however if we get "too much" of it then it may actually prevent zinc from being utilized in our bodies and so on.

As I basically said....IF copper is being given off by our copper pipes where it leads to leaks and that cause can not be corrected THEN I would recommend that people do not use copper piping in that situation.

Should I go ahead and cut this pipe out and redo it? I was trying to cut away a protruding nail head and I slipped and the grinding wheel end up hitting the pipe. It is so close to the wood studs I would have to unscrew all the pipes nearby in order to get in there to cut it off and resolder in a new section.



or can I forget it?

That damage is neglible. If you are worried, drain the pipe and apply a layer of solder over the scuff mark.

if the scuffed tube is "M" .... replace

if the scuffed tube is "L" .... you now have "M" wall thickness, so it's still minimally OK



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"Shell was the sole manufacturer of the resin for polybutylene (unlike polyethylene which has many foreign resin manufacturers).

Yes, there were many mistakes made initially with p.b. such as the acetal fittings had issues as well as no warnings were initially given regarding using p.b. in areas of high concentrations of chlorine in the water. Polybutylene should never have been installed where high amounts of chlorine in water where present or in recirculation systems where chlorine was present."

That explains why it was so flammable, I saw a plumber back in the early 80's working not far from me, ignite the PB accidentally with his torch, while he was making his transition back to copper for his stub outs. It went up like a dry Christmas tree....the first crimp rings like an anodized metal....which caused LOTS of leaks and then we used a newer brass type crimp ring. These seemed to hold up better.....I am old school...give me copper pipe anytime!

quote; ignite the PB accidentally with his torch, while he was making his transition back to copper for his stub outs. It went up like a dry Christmas tree..

And you have NEVER seen it happen with any other type of plastic pipe? You must not get around very much.

hj,did you ever see a copper pipe that was 90% copper and 10 steel? i think it was in the 70,s that this was one the market in north dakota.seemed to work ok but sure dulled a cutter wheel in a hurry. was just wondering if this was called " D "

You may be referring to what we called "Bundyweld" which was a copper plated steel pipe. It was usually used for radiant heating jobs, although I suppose some contractors could have used it for water lines to save on costs.

A bit late in my response to hj on an earlier quote. The terra cotta request instead of pvc was not in reference to potable water, but to the leeching of chemicals into the soil from the pvc pipe material.

Leaching chemicals into the soil from PVC and similar, is reacting to hyperbole. There are a lot more PVC pipes in the ground than there are sewer lines. I am not sure I have EVER seen a terra cotta sewage ejector pit, (which by definition would have to be one piece and sealed against leakage), and if there were one, I am sure I would not want to try to handle it without a crane. I would install cast iron sewers, and sewage ejector pits, before I went back to clay pipe, and if they were that environmentally conscious, they should be willing to pay for it.

And you have NEVER seen it happen with any other type of plastic pipe? You must not get around very much.

What does that have to do with PB pipe? That was the topic. As far as me getting around, I am doing quite fine after the surgery. Thank you.

California it is standard procedure to bring water service from the meter at the street underground to the building footprint with 3/4 or 1" pvc pipe Not inside the structure however

Gone and forgotten!