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 urinal gasket leak
Author: sgull (AK)

At my workplace the one and only American Standard wall-hung urinal is leaking again at the gasket between the urinal and the waste pipe. It's an old model, stamped year 1975 in the porcelain on the back. In the past I've posted here about this exact issue with the same urinal, and several plumbers here reported good success with the use of an American Standard style (for toilet) tank-to-bowl gasket, the type with a rim around the perimeter, which can be notched to then simply 'snap' around the outlet pipe and which then will provide the seal. I tried this method and it seemed to work well, until sometime later when the same troublesome leakage became apparent again. I then had a local plumber come and examine the situation, who said he would use one of those wax-impregnated felt ring gaskets, which I then tried. It too, seemed to work very well until again, after some time, leakage started to occur again, but actually seemed like a somewhat worse leak then after trying the aforementioned foam gasket. I've decided to try the foam gasket method as mentioned here again, but was wondering if maybe this time I could/should apply a little wax or pipe dope or something on the mating surface(s) of the gasket, if that would do the trick? Any further comments/advice appreciated.

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 Re: urinal gasket leak
Author: SMSPlumbing (PA)

When using the foam gasket, you have to make sure that both surfaces are clean. The host of this site has urinal gaskets that you can get. Look at the bottom of this page
[www.plumbingsupply.com]

If installed correctly, you do not need anything other than the gasket. Do you guys have any other problems with this urinal that would shorten the life of the gasket?

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 Re: urinal gasket leak
Author: dlh (TX)

i bet the urinal isnt sitting against the pipe correctly

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PLUMBERS "Protecting The Health Of The Nation"

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 Re: urinal gasket leak
Author: sgull (AK)

No as far as I know we don't have any other problems with the urinal that could shorten the life of the gasket? Like what, for example? Somebody dumping some corrosive liquid in it or something? If so, no that's not happening.

Here's some photos I took, two of how the outlet connection pipe is seen on the wall, and two showing the American Standard type foam tank-to-bowl gasket snapped into place. And, as far as the suggestion that problem may be that the urinal may not be sitting on the pipe correctly, how does one know for sure anyway if its exactly centered just perfectly right, if that needs to be the case?







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 Re: urinal gasket leak
Author: Wheelchair (IL)

The neo-seal gasket (graphite) is the one most suggested and used by American Standard.
Best Wishes

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 Re: urinal gasket leak
Author: SMSPlumbing (PA)

The gasket should be snug around the carrier drain. I would use a gasket designed for a urinal, not for a tank-to-bowl. That could make the difference.

Does the urinal move at all once it is tightened and in place? Do you ever have to plunge it or snake it?

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 Re: urinal gasket leak
Author: sgull (AK)

I might be inclined to agree that the gasket should be snug around the carrier drain. But I'm even more inclined to agree with at least two experienced knowledgeable plumbers who regularly contribute what I've often found to be the some of the most useful advice to this forum, and that is that the tank-to-bowl gasket I've mentioned will seal just as well as the OEM type recommended replacements, i.e. the neo-seal graphite ones (which by the way are not only hard to get in my area (would have to order the dang thing) but quite expensive as well). Plus, as I mentioned before, I have already tried using a gasket designed for a urinal, which was recommended by a different plumber as well (the felt type impregnated with wax), and that started leaking after a while too. And no the urinal does not move once it's tightened and in place, and I've never had to plunge or snake it.

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 Re: urinal gasket leak
Author: SMSPlumbing (PA)

Here is the thing. If the part is correct and the install is done right, then it does not just start to leak, unless something is causing it to move and break the seal. The gasket takes the shape of the flange and the urinal. The foam ones are more forgiving with little movements. How long are these lasting for you?

If you like the tank to bowl gaskets then just keep putting them on. I was just saying, even though that is good advice, it did start to leak again. So either repeat that process or try something else. You have the final say. This is just my opinion.

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 Re: urinal gasket leak
Author: Shoemaker2 (MA)

I think the flange is too close to the wall. You need a longer nipple to bring it out a bit.

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 Re: urinal gasket leak
Author: North Carolina Plumber (NC)

I'm with SMSPlumbing, somethings wrong to cause such a short life on your seals.

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 Re: urinal gasket leak
Author: LemonPlumber (FL)

Could you back the camera out about three feet so I can see the seal around this urinal?I would clean both the brass and porcelain and use rubber cement with a foam gasket flat or flattened on both sides. If it is floating free off the wall at the bottom.Then use shims and a generous amount of silicone to seal the gap!Never allow a fixture to be sealed any movement.I would have to question about chemical cleaners at this point.

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 Re: urinal gasket leak
Author: Shoemaker2 (MA)

Face of flange should be at least 1/2" past finish wall.

[www.americanstandard-us.com]

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 Re: urinal gasket leak
Author: Shoemaker2 (MA)

Urine is stronger than any cleaners. The flange is too shallow.

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 Re: urinal gasket leak
Author: LemonPlumber (FL)

gone



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 Re: urinal gasket leak
Author: phillyplbg (PA)

Is it ruled out that it could be a faulty urinal. maybe a hairline crack.

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 Re: urinal gasket leak
Author: hj (AZ)

If the gasket can be compressed when you tighten the urinal bolts you do NOT need anything else, and it should NOT start leaking later. If it does not compress, it will be very difficult to keep it from leaking.

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 Re: urinal gasket leak
Author: sgull (AK)

But how does one determine for sure whether the gasket is compressing enough when the bolts are tightened, when you can't see it? Also, I can understand that the brass and porcelain surfaces should be reasonably clean before installing the new gasket, but is it going to be necessary to try to remove every trace of any slight residual wax, etc.?

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 Re: urinal gasket leak
Author: Shoemaker2 (MA)

You clean as well as you can. Sometimes heating it with the torch will help to get the wax off. you should be able to feel the china hit the seal and then the gap at the wall should close as you tighten the nuts on the flange. I still think the flange should be moved out a little bit.

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 Re: urinal gasket leak
Author: sgull (AK)

If the surface of the flange should be absolutely no less than 1/2" from the surface of the wall, then I'd have to concur that the flange should be moved out a little (about 1/16" I guess). Would that likely entail having to open the wall there and then trying to remove the old (and likely in there super tight) nipple (or flange assembly thing) and put a longer one in? I don't know what this flange/nipple thing looks like behind the wall, what it is I'd be expected to have to replace or otherwise elongate somehow. Some explanation along that line too would be welcome. thanks



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 Re: urinal gasket leak
Author: dlh (TX)

the flange depth looks correct. the seals in the pics look like they could be falling as you set the urinal meaning the urinal isnt set properly and will begin to leak sooner or later. it is a bit of a pain to get the seal in there just right even if it fits properly

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PLUMBERS "Protecting The Health Of The Nation"

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 Re: urinal gasket leak
Author: dlh (TX)

oh, and those neoprene/wax seals are not something i recommend as they tend to start leaking within a year or so from what i have observed

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PLUMBERS "Protecting The Health Of The Nation"

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 Re: urinal gasket leak
Author: sgull (AK)

dlh, I'm not sure what you mean when you say it looks like in the pictures that the seals could be falling as I set the urinal. Two of the pictures are of the same (and as of yet) unused new gasket. And two of the pictures simply show the brass flange outlet as its positioned there in the wall. So I don't understand how you can see by any of the pictures how the seal(s?) may be falling as I set the urinal. Can you please explain further?

Also, I haven't tried any gasket made of neoprene/wax, and don't plan to. I've tried a gasket made of the foam rubber material, and I've tried a gasket made of felt (wax impregnated felt).



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 Re: urinal gasket leak
Author: sgull (AK)

Also perhaps worth mentioning for those here suggesting that certain chemical cleaners used to clean the urinal may be either contributing to or causing the seal(s) to leak, when I asked what was being used I was told it was Clorox Clean-up Cleaner with Bleach on a regular daily basis.

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 Re: urinal gasket leak
Author: Nayman's Drain Services (Non-US)

Fernco has just come out with a new style urinal seal.
It sets inside the waste pipe.
Works like a hotdamn.

www.fernco.com

---------------

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 Re: urinal gasket leak
Author: hj (AZ)

Usually, if it is going to compress, the bottom of the urinal will be held away from the wall by the gasket. IF the urinal is against the wall before you start to tighten the nuts, then it is not thick enough. You can also tell by the old gasket whether it is "flattened" or not.

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 Re: urinal gasket leak
Author: hj (AZ)

If it is a brass drain fitting, then it is screwed in, but you would be forced to use a 1/2" longer nipple which would then probably push the bottom of the urinal out too far.

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 Re: urinal gasket leak
Author: hj (AZ)

They don't say HOW that "handy dandy" piece seals to the inside of the pipe, other than to say it is "free floating", which does not make me comfortable as far a leakproofness is concerned. And they do not say HOW movement can occur when the urinal is tightly held to the fitting with bolts.

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 Re: urinal gasket leak
Author: dlh (TX)

that gasket in the picture does not fit properly and will fall as you set the urinal, meaning it wont be centered. the foam rubber gaskets are what i use and i dont have a problem with leaks

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PLUMBERS "Protecting The Health Of The Nation"

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 Re: urinal gasket leak
Author: Wheelchair (IL)

Have you noticed that the right gasket for the job IS the most expensive and hardest to get?
In the Midwest-Chicago, all of the major wholesalers and warehouses stock the graphite-neoseal gasket. But there are also a lot of American Standard urinals here too.
When you do find that which works best for you, buy a couple so that you have a spare for those speical urinals.

Doing it right the first time, might take a little longer.
Best Wishes

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 Re: urinal gasket leak
Author: Scott the Plumber (PA)

I can also see where the gasket in the photo is not a snug fit and may shift when mounting the urinal. What we cannot see is if the rest of the installation is correct and may be affecting your seal. Is the rest of the urinal properly supported? A bad mounting of the urinal may be slowly working the seal loose. After a few test flushes and no leaks the urinal seal should last quite some time. The urinal gaskets I use are the 2" solid rubber with a bevel. Never had problems with them and they fit firmly around the flange with the beveled edge snug inside the urinal outlet. Sorry I don't have a brand name for them, most of our suppliers have them in an unlabeled plain box next to all of the other big name urinal gaskets.
Otherwise, I would follow hj's postings closely regarding this subject



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 Re: urinal gasket leak
Author: sgull (AK)

Note, in the FAQ section at the bottom of this page: [www.plumbingsupply.com]

"Over time all walls will flex (somewhat) and when that happens, gravity will allow a space - which will allow leaks."

Context is in regard to the use of wax gaskets for urinals. So apparently it's not the urinal that may be moving, but the wall. Well I didn't see my wall moving, but it probably only moves when I'm not looking. In fact my wall might may be jumping around so much it just jostles itself right out of the foam gaskets I've tried too.

I really need something that works like a hotdamn. Who knows maybe that hotdamn Fernco may just be the greatest thing since indoor plumbing. :think2:



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 Re: urinal gasket leak
Author: SMSPlumbing (PA)

Try it and let us know.

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 Re: urinal gasket leak
Author: LemonPlumber (FL)

try putting a level across the stub out bolt's.leaning?use the rubber cement.Zurn!



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 Re: urinal gasket leak
Author: sgull (AK)

Thanks everyone (tu) for the helpful input here.



Edited 1 times.

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 Re: urinal gasket leak
Author: hj (AZ)

Of COURSE it is, and if you don't believe me, just ask them.

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 Re: urinal gasket leak
Author: LemonPlumber (FL)

Chlorine.yep.Find your self with anew rubber /sealed by rubber and correct the flange tilt!scrubbing bubbles will shatter a crystal handle, urine wont.Lysol will turn ugly if not allowed to dry ,urine remains the same.Urine actually will coat many surfaces like a layer of calcium would.Not eat away wax and rubber like chlorine does.



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 Re: urinal gasket leak
Author: sgull (AK)

So could anyone recommend, off hand, a suitable urinal cleaner/disinfectant product to be using instead of that chlorine stuff they've been using here, one that won't eat away wax and rubber gaskets like Lemon mentioned it does. thanks

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 Re: urinal gasket leak
Author: hj (AZ)

I use the muriatic acid to clean the urinal's drain, and in the process it also cleans the urinal.

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 Re: urinal gasket leak
Author: sgull (AK)

Muriatic acid used on a daily basis seems rather harsh and overkill for general cleaning/disinfecting of the urinals on a daily basis. The janitor person who's been doing the cleaning uses Clorox Clean-Up in the urinals, and lets the (diluted) solution sit in the urinals overnight before the first flush happens again in the morning. There seems to be a suggestion here that using such a chlorine product for such cleaning of the urinal can potentially damage the urinal drain gasket. If that's the case I'd like to know of a non-caustic product which can be used on a daily basis and which is known to be safe for the gaskets. Any recommendations, what's the right kind of cleaner stuff to use on a regular daily basis that won't harm the gaskets?



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 Re: urinal gasket leak
Author: hj (AZ)

I was not referring to using it daily, because I do not clean urinals. I use it when the drain is plugged, or plugging, up, and then cleaning the urinal is a side benefit of it.

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 Re: urinal gasket leak
Author: sgull (AK)

Unless I'm misunderstanding, the chlorine in the cleaner I mentioned being used on daily basis to clean/disinfect the urinal has been implicated here as a possible culprit of shortening the life of the gasket ("eats away wax and rubber"). If that's the case I'd like anyone who might know to please share with me what daily cleaner product/solution would be the proper one to use which would be easier on the gasket.

On the other hand, it was also stated here that "urine is stronger than any cleaner," apparently a suggestion that it shouldn't make any difference as far as the gasket is concerned what type of cleaner is used.

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 Re: urinal gasket leak
Author: shacko (MD)

LemonPlumber: I think you are right, ever since they started making walls with 3 1/2in. studs and puting a urinal on it, I started gluing the gasket to the spud, haven't had a leak since. :clap:

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 Re: urinal gasket leak
Author: Wheelchair (IL)

Standing urine in a urinal trap can be naturally destructive. The resolve is to flush the urinal after each use and clean with a mild sanitizer each day. Chlorine is ok when properly diuted and keeping it inside the china and off the flush valve. Most have noticed that when a automatic battery operator was added, urinals became cleaner and had no odor. Urinal cakes help very little.

Best Wishes

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 Re: urinal gasket leak
Author: PlumerDan (CA)

thats what i use to.especialy when you remove the cartridge from a waterless urinal and the outlet is plugged with crystals, i would also like to know how they can jam that new one in when some pipes have to be chiseled out to drain.

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