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Author:
Nayman's Drain Services (Non-US)
A client of mine, on well and septic, calls me this morning, and says her sinks are backing up. She says that she needs to vacuum out her sinks about once an hour with a shopvac. I'm thinking.....MMMMM, impossible.
So I get to her place, and sure enough, the water level in 3 sinks on the top floor of the house are rising. Toilets, shower and bath drain good. Trying to find drains in this house are a joke, since the house was built by a farmer back in '69.
Vac the sinks, and the drains and go to the basement, crack the c/o. Keep the vac sucking water from the cracked open c/o. After 10 minutes, waste water stops, open the c/o fully, and suck 3" down the 1/1/2 drain line, which transits into a 2 " cast line under the floor. I go to my van to get my auger, and when I get back, there is water flowing UP the 1 1/2" and out the c/o. It's clear,cold, and no smell.
I auger the 2", and eventually the water disappears.
Now, there are several things in play here.
The family had a rice supper last nite, and pre-teen boys did the dishes (I think that instaed of scraping them, they just poured leftover rice down the drain)
The horizontal under the concrete services a 2 sink kitchen, and d/w, as well as the laundry room with it's own sink.
The property has a rather high water table, with a creek running 200 yards behind the house, as well as numerous springs in the meadows.
There are 2 quarries within a 1/2 mile that have deep water in them as well.
I do not have a camera, so I'm just surmising here.
The cast 2" is cracked under the floor, and lets in groundwater.
The rice plugged the 2" cast drain downstream of the break, forcing it upstream into the sinks.
The question remains..............Knowing that water finds its own level, why would it force its way 8 feet above mean ground level?
Could the hydraulic pressure under the house be able to do that?
Thanks,
Herman
Nayman's Drain Services, Inc.
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Author:
LemonPlumber (FL)
Dose this home have ground water collection system?is it on the same line as the kitchens?Sump line or the home floats?
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Good Luck. Insulate your hot piping, although costly, it will pay you back every day.
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Author:
Nayman's Drain Services (Non-US)
Hey Lemon,
I don't know about weeping tile, and the home owners don't either. The home DOES have a sump with a working pump, but it stays empty during the winter. In spring and summer it runs on a regular basis.
Here on the prairies of Northern Canada, we have had some bitter cold temps (-40F) our frost level is at 40".
The 2" elbows to horizontal at +/- 12 inches below the concrete floor.
Top of concrete floor is 52" below grade.
I'm not sure what to think.
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Author:
LemonPlumber (FL)
Do they know if all is served by one septic or could these fixtures be a grey water ?Freezing septic can produce back water flow,but man thats a lot of freezing.Got to have something else causing the head pressure ? softener/ro,discharging in this grey system?
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Good Luck. Insulate your hot piping, although costly, it will pay you back every day.
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Author:
Nayman's Drain Services (Non-US)
this property only has 1 septic tank.
The tank is not frozen ( I inspected the tank from the top access)
The w/c's and shower and tub drain just fine.
The system does have a water softener, but it drains into the floor drain, which is not affected by the problem. I still think that it's only the 2" line that has the problem.
i'll try to draw a mental picture.
The house is 40'X20"
Midway thru the house is where the main stack comes down, on the long side, right beside an outside wall, but 10' from the end.
From there, the 4" main runs at a 60 degree to a front c/o, takes another turn to the tank(20 feet from the house)
The 2" in question runs for about 30 feet to intersect with the 4"under the floor somewhere. (The 30 feet being a straight line back from the front c/o)
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Author:
A1APLBG (GA)
Try turning the water off to the house and see if this quits. I repaired A slab leak that had cut a hole into the ABS drain line. The home owner was on a community well and never realised he had a leak until the main line was blocked and his tubs became a waterfall.
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Author:
Nayman's Drain Services (Non-US)
Once I put my auger thru the blockage, the water didn't come up any more. I suppose it goes into the septic tank.
Please read my first post,and tell me if my thought on what was happening to this system is approximately right.Shutting the water off at this point is moot, because I cleared the stoppage and water is no longer working its way up the drain pipes.
All I'm wondering is why the (supposed) ground water is forcing its way up pipes +/- 8' above ground level.
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Author:
hj
Water cannot flow uphill unless it is under pressure, and unless it is pumped the only way it gets pressure is from elevation. If the cleanout is in the basement, and the basement is 4'-4" below ground level, water seeking its own level could rise up that far, or at least to the elevation of its source. Not knowing HOW the piping is installed, we cannot tell at which point the water is entering the pipe.
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Author:
jimmy-o (CA)
How high is the top floor of the house with respect to the surrounding landscape? Very hard to explain what is forcing water that way....it is either gravity from water at a higher elevation...or something is pumped. Any possibility of a cross connection from the pressurize water supply?
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Author:
Nayman's Drain Services (Non-US)
HJ,
I realize that water finds its own level, and it should level off at 4'4" from the floor. The client lives on the prairie, with level landscape all around.
Jimmy-o,
the floor of the kitchen is approximately 3 feet above outside ground level, and the kitchen sinks standard height above the floor. A cross connection would cause the pump to run from pressure loss, but the pump never ran, and pressure was steady at 45psi.
Once I ran the auger thru, the water quit forcing its way up the drain, and is probably going into the septic tank.
I have been wracking my brain over this one, and the only thing I can think of, is that one of the springs on the property has found itself a new flowchannel underground.
Does that sound like a plausible explanation?
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Author:
LemonPlumber (FL)
Or someone tied it into the septic before the clog.seems this would create a water logged septic system in no time unless the drain field is pumped.
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Good Luck. Insulate your hot piping, although costly, it will pay you back every day.
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Author:
Nayman's Drain Services (Non-US)
the tank has a pump-out, using a Myers ME3H11P.
It is tied to a 1 1/4" line going about 250 feet to outfall
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Author:
Nayman's Drain Services (Non-US)
come on, you guys..........
Lemon, HJ, Jimmy-o.................I KNOW that between the 3 of yous, you have an answer.
I wish I had a video I could post of this stuff as it was happening. I swear to God, on my Granny's grave that it happened the way I said.in my 1st post.
I know the laws of gravity, water seeking its own level, etc. All i'm trying to do is to make sense of it all.
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Author:
dlh (TX)
well that is the problem. unless the water level is above the sink or something is pumping the water it can not do what you described
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PLUMBERS "Protecting The Health Of The Nation"
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Author:
LemonPlumber (FL)
Shut down the water incoming and then the septic pump power.watch to see if water level rises.Sorry best plausible cause,I can dream up.
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Good Luck. Insulate your hot piping, although costly, it will pay you back every day.
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Author:
Shoemaker2 (MA)
Are you on Indian Burial Ground?
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Author:
Nayman's Drain Services (Non-US)
LMAO@Shoemaker
No, it's not a burial ground.
I shut of the water pump, drained all lines in the house so that there was no possibility of water coming into the drain.
An hour later, water was still trickling into the septic tank. Don't forget I already unclogged the drain, so water is not coming up any more.
I wish I could have taken & posted a video of it. I'm sure a lot of you guys would be scratching your heads like I did. I'm still of a mind that it's groundwater, or water from one of the springs on their property that is forcing its way into the drain.
Thanks to all that answered.
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Author:
dlh (TX)
could have a condensate line running into it but that usually doesnt happen till the summer
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PLUMBERS "Protecting The Health Of The Nation"
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Author:
Nayman's Drain Services (Non-US)
Sorry, DLH.
Nothing THAT new here.
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