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The very popular general plumbing, toilets, sinks, faucets, pump problems, questions and answers discussion Forum
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Author:
tlyoung99 (KY)
I recently remodeled our master bathroom to include a 10" showerhead and 4 body sprays. Unfortunately, the 1/2" copper running to the valve just doesn't provide enough flow to maintain a good flowrate when all 4 of the body sprays are on. I'm sguessing if I ran a larger line right to the valve I might see some improvement, but the problem is that the Moen valve is 1/2" also.
Right now I have a 3/4" line that runs to the second floor of my house which then branches off into multiple 1/2" lines for shower/toilet/sinks. I could run the 3/4" line all the way up to valve, but I'm not sure how much the 3/4" line would increase pressure/flow since I'm stuck with the 1/2" valve.
Would running a 3/4" line to the 1/2" valve provide any better pressure/flow?
Any other suggestions on how I can get more pressure/flow?
Thanks,
tlyoung99
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Author:
North Carolina Plumber (NC)
2 ways, either increase volume or pressure. In your case to increase volume you would have to replace the 1/2" valve with a 3/4". If you are on a well you could increase the pressure via pump switch. On a public water system you may have a PRV that could be adjusted, or you could use a booster pump.
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Author:
LemonPlumber (FL)
Call moen.Ask if they would trade you out what you bought for 3/4"thermostatic with 2 each 3/4"volume controls.You will need to do some tile work .but will bet you you get the flow you desire,without increased flow from the tubing..And moen may give you the valves/or up grade cost.Please post the valve number that you have roughed in.Did you remove the restrictors from either the rain head or body spray's??
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Good Luck. Insulate your hot piping, although costly, it will pay you back every day.
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Author:
packy
all you will have to buy is a valve body. the trim is the same for 1/2" and 3/4" valves.
incrreasing to 3/4 pipe feeding a 1/2" valve might give you slightly better volume.
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Author:
steve_g (CA)
The area of a 3/4" circle is more than double the area of a 1/2" circle.
1/2" = .19635 sq in
3/4" = .44179 sq in
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Author:
Scott D. Plumber (VA)
Some Thoughts:
CPVC. PEX, 3/4" at about 60PSI will only give you about 8GPM flow considering other system pressure and flow losses. Copper, keeping in the standard 4 feet per second maximum flow rate (National copper pipe inst.) will give you about 10gpm.
if you have 8 body sprays assuming 2gpm each, that’s 16gpm total flow. Assuming and 80/20 mix of hot to cold you need about 12.8GPM for max performance on just the hot side. We didn’t count the trashcan lid rain head yet either!
So what’s the point? You should have a hi-flow Valve set for the body sprays alone and another one for the rain head. Piped in no less than ¾ and preferable 1”! 1” will give you about 20 GPM on copper, and about 16 gpm on pex/CPVC (using round numbers)
Lets say you have ¾” lines feeding a hi-flow valve set. You could potentially have 10 gpm on each side. So what is coming out of the top? ¾”. You are going to have about 10 gpm period going to whatever that feeds.
All that said, 10gpm is AL LOT of water! Through 8 body sprays it should still be pretty impressive.
What is your well capacity?
What is your main water pipe size feeding the house?
all that matters too.
***********************************
Give your kids a great start on the future! Encourage them learn a trade. Even if they go on to do other things, it's always nice to know that they have something to fall back on. Call your local technical training center or trade school to learn more.
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Author:
tlyoung99 (KY)
Thank you all for your great advice.
The valve that I have is S955 1/2 Rough In
The body sprays and 10" showerhead come as a package, Moen TS511. I think this is my main problem, they suggest S955 with that package, but in my case, it does not seem to provide enough volume. Could it have anything to do with my press balance loop on the body sprays?
To clarify a few points:
We have 4 body sprays total plus the 10" shower head.
I did not remove the restrictors from either the body sprays or the shower head.
We are on city water and all supply lines are copper.
I believe we have a 1" supply line feeding the house.
I should also clarify that even with all 4 body sprays and shower head running at once, the flow is not horribly slow, just slower than what I would like/expect. I half expected this issue, but did not realize that I could have spec'd a 3/4 valve vs. a 1/2 since this was all purchased as a set. The 1/2 is what was recommended so that's what I went with.
Please note, none of this is a knock against Moen. I have found their products and customer service to be unparalleled. I had a problem with the showerhead and they replaced it in 2 days without question. I guess this is to be expected going with the showhouse line from Moen and the $$$ I spent, but well worth it in my opinion.
Thanks.
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Author:
LemonPlumber (FL)
I love moen and when you say your feeding with 1/2"supply that is what would be called for. Experience tells me that using the 3/4"will yield a higher flow rate from the same supply.If your pressure is above 65 psi you may wish to remove the restrictors from the body sprays to see if it corrects the flow.Is the valve and the body spray loop with in six running feet ?
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Good Luck. Insulate your hot piping, although costly, it will pay you back every day.
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Author:
tlyoung99 (KY)
Probably closer to 8 linear feet of 1/2 pipe due to the way I set-up the pressure balancing loops. I may have introduced too much pressure drop given the number of elbows and tees that I used. My pressure loop looks something like this:
/---o---\ /---o---\
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\---o---/ \---o---/
o - Body Spray
/ or \ - Elbow
Valve
There are a total of:
7 Tees (1 at each body spray, 1 at each side of the loop, 1 at the valve)
8 Elbows (one at each "corner")
Roughly 8' of pipe
I don't think the issue is the restrictors because if I just put my hand over one body spray, I see increased flow from other sprays. To me, that says that there is more capacity in a given body spray, just not enough supply to meet that capacity (unless a body spray is taken out of the loop, thus increasing flow to capacity). I'll probably start w/ 3/4 to the valve and see what happens.
When you say "Experience tells me that using the 3/4"will yield a higher flow rate from the same supply", are you suggesting that I should increase the supply line to the valve to 3/4 or go with 3/4 after the valve? I'm guessing the former since I can't understand how the latter could help given that I only have 1/2" coming in to the valve.
Thanks again for all your help.
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Author:
LemonPlumber (FL)
No I meant to change the valve to 3/4"not the supply.the 1/2 valve body coupled with the divertor seems to create a flow restriction.And you know the restrictors in the body sprays are pressure compensated.That little o-ring will cut off flow rate at a higher pressure more than at a lowered one.
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Good Luck. Insulate your hot piping, although costly, it will pay you back every day.
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Author:
hj
Your limiting factor is probably the capacity of the shower valve itself. The benefits of a balancing loop are vastly overstated, and your combination of elbows and tees probably has little to do with your problem. The shower valve has a finite capacity, and you are trying to get more water out of it than it can possibly flow.
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Author:
packy
that is not a loop..
a loop would have the forward slash and the backward slash on the right side connected together.
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Author:
hj
You mean you can actually tell how it is installed from the drawing?
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