I have a bathroom it's toilet will bubble with air when someone takes a shower in another bathroom.

Bathroom A is the most upstream bathroom, if I take a shower in bathroom A, bathroom B's toilet bowl water bubbles. The bowl is at the normal water level, it is not lower, just air bubbles come up. The shower in bathroom B, that is just next to the toilet does not bubble.

Bathroom A runs for about 30' then picks up bathroom B, then another 30' to pick up the kitchen and laundry, then exits the house. I do not hear any bubbling from the kitchen or laundry.

Is my main line COMPLETELY blocked after bathroom B? and thus when bathroom A drains it had nowhere to go but pushes the air up bathroom B's fixtures?

AN UPDATE.

If I flush the toilet that is bubbling, it will not flush, the bowl will fill up even there is no solid waste. The water will then slowly receed until to the bottom of the trapway and bubbles.

If I then wait 30 minutes and flush again, toilet B will flush normally.

The toilet in toilet A flushes normally without indications of any problems.

ANOTHER UPDATE.

I just flushed the toilet in A a few more times and the last time it did it make a very loud noise as the water empties the trapway. I think it was sucking water out of the adjacent shower. I then waited till it refilled, I then turned on the shower thinking to fill up the trap under the shower again, flushed once more and it flushed normally.

I am not sure where the problem is now...whether it is bathroom A or B, they are 30' apart unless the entire line is blocked up?



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The connection to toilet "A" is lower, or different, than toilet "B" and has an unusual vent, therefore it becomes obstructed by the rising water first. Once it reaches the level of the vent connection, it pushes the air out through the toilet causing the bubbles, AND the lack of flushing. The other toilet is connected in such a way that its vent continues to function so that toilet will flush properly, for a time, (and the amount of time and flushes depends on what is obstructing the line and where it is. HOWEVER, a flooded septic system could operate like this for a long time, because the water needed to create problems with the toilet "B" may drain away fast enough to not cause the problem.

I have no idea how the two bathrooms are vented, but if the blockage has caused water to rise up to the vent, then clearing the main line may not be enough as the blockage is now further up the branch line?

I hope it is wet vented so that once the main blockage clears I can turn on the lav or shower to wash the blockage off.

I have called a drain cleaner to come jet my line. I called around 12:30pm today and they said they will be here "within the hour" and now it's 5:15pm. I am still sitting tight.

One question about jetting, how likely is for a jet to go upstream and travel up a branch and shoot out the toilet?

Not likely, but it depends on where he inserts the jetter. Once it starts in the right direction it continues on, unless someone installed a fitting backwards. A proper vent can become submerged if it connects to the system at a low point.

I made the call at 12:30pm, and he finally showed at 6:45pm. I explained the problem and he said he can either go to the master bathroom and pull the toilet and run an electric snake down, or try jetting from downstream cleanout. I opted for the jetting as it won't make a mess inside the house.

He sent the jet in and got to a "trouble spot", said it feels like a blockage of some sort and he went back and forth a few times then it pushed through, about another minute later it started raining on us...except it wasn't rain. It was water from the roof. I walked back and looked and water was shooting out of one of the vent so I said STOP STOP!!! the jet went up the vent instead.

I quickly ran inside the house to the garage area where my washer dryer are and sure enough the floor is all wet from the standpipe overflowing. ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

It does seem like whatever blockage that was there cleared, or at least partially cleared, as I was able to flush the toilet and run the shower at the same time and I flushed about 10 times in a row without any gurgling or bubbling sound.

Now, 8 hours and $650 later, I have a flooded garage to clean up.

One question came to mind about wet venting and not rolling up the branch, which is a topic that I have asked before in an unrelated topic, and Florida does allow horizontal wet venting, but I kept thinking, the fact the jet went up the branch, it seemed that it would be unlikely to happen because the branch is a reduced pipe (2" when the main is 3", however, would not rolling up that branch be one of the reasons that contributed to the jet traveled up the branch?

I am merely speculating as I have no idea how the DWV was plumbed in my current home.

its possible but not as likely with a jetter as it is with a cable as the jetter wont normally be kinked and flopping around in the pipe.

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PLUMBERS "Protecting The Health Of The Nation"

So I got lucky then?

depends on how the plumbing is actually ran and you said yourself you didnt know how it is ran

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PLUMBERS "Protecting The Health Of The Nation"

The water that is in my garage now that spilled from the standpipe for the washing machine, is that clean water from the jet head, sewage overflow or a mix of both?

probably both

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PLUMBERS "Protecting The Health Of The Nation"

Yikes!

NOrmally the only way the jetter could go up a pipe would be if it was the end point and there was no other place for it to go. The only time I was ever able to get it to go into a branch was when I had a nozzle that had a side jet to force it into any opening it passed, and even then the side jet had to be 180 degrees from the branch to force it to take the detour. BUT if you have a downstream cleanout for the jetter, WHY in the world did he not use that for his snake? It would make absolutely NO SENSE, to remove the toilet and snake through that when there was a usable cleanout downstream. That implies that your "sewer man" has "tunnel vision" and only knows how to do things one way.

quote; So I got lucky then?

That depends on how you define "luck". A properly operating jet basically stays in the center of the pipe supported by the encircling jets. It is possible, if the branch is large enough, it was a "Y" or combo and the hose is proceeding slow enough, that the reduction in resistance, as it went past the opening, could have caused the opposing jets to force it into the branch, but I have never had it happen. If that happened, it would have occurred regardless of how the fitting was oriented.

Since the water from the jet was pushing everything ahead of it, and apparently little was getting past it to drain down the pipe, it is probably both.

The sewer man told me a snake snakes forward and a jet jets upstream with the head sprays water backwards as it moves up the pipe.

How he got up that laundry line branch I don't know, it is a 2" branch, but who knows, may be the WYE I had below the main line actually is off the branch and they put a reducing bushing on the back of the WYE, no one knows how if happened.

The price of the jetting does include camera inspection so they will be back to do a camera inspection today or tomorrow. I will have a better idea what my line looks like then.

jetter nozzles to clean sewer lines usually have a jet that goes out the front to punch through a blockage and if he got to the end of the line and the washer was the last fixture on the line it would be the place where the water would be pushed out

this guy sounds like an @#$%& that wasnt taught very well if at all

you can use a cable for either direction it is just easier to go at the blockage from the back side as the water will help in clearing the blockage but a jetter should never be used behind the blockage unless there is somewhere for the water to go until at least a hole is blown through the blockage as it can create a mess in the building, as you have found out

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PLUMBERS "Protecting The Health Of The Nation"



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no the main line is much longer about 100' and he may be 25' from the downstream CO so not even 1/4 of the way up yet.

Whatever it is it was easier to go up the 2" then the 3" main.

A snake moving "upstream" will sometimes do a BETTER job of cleaning, depending on the cause of the stoppage, but will ALWAYS do the same level of cleaning that coming from the upstream end will. Your "snaker" may have been a "90 day wonder" who "couldn't spell plummer three munce ago, and now he are one".



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now they are going to come out and do a camera inspection for my line which is complementary once I paid for the water jet service.

however, it is only an inspection but if I want a copy of it recorded they will charge me extra, and they won't tell me how much extra until they are on site. geeez.

Probably about $75.00, and it doesn't cost them anything, other than the price of the disc. They do not want to give it to you because you could show it to some other company which would do the REAL work necessary and do it cheaper.

Sum switch to Scotts single ply toilet paper!

Well the camera man came to video the line. Here is a general layout of my line based on what I saw in the video and the layout of the house. The main line is 3" PVC and house was built in 1980. No basement, line is under a 4" concrete slab, soil is sandy.



There are 4 vents sticking out of the roof, kitchen sink has it's own vent, so does the laundry machine, so does bath 1 and bath 2. I have no idea how they are all connected underneath.

He started off from the downstream CO-1 where the 3" PVC line exits the house. Moves up about 20 feet upstream and got to a "trouble spot". The spot is a trouble spot because it's completely filled with water so we can hardly see anything because the water is cloudy. The trouble spot is upstream of the kitchen sink as I can see the kitchen 2" line tie in as we moved upward.

If he continues upstream he will either get out of the trouble spot and shoot up a 2" line which is the laundry tie in, or if he pulls back and try again he will get back on the 3" main line and upstream of that the pipe is clear.

It seems this spot is either a wye or a combo or some combination of fittings where it makes the 90 turn and also the laundry line ties in. It is completely full of water. We waited about 20 minutes and the water did not subside. It is hard to tell with the lens submerged in cloudy water, but I can barely make out something that looks like the pipe is separated. I can see the edge of the PVC pipe and what looks like the face of a rock...I don't know.

We then pulled the video line and walked to the upstream spot and inserted the line from CO-2, and the line is clear until we get to the same trouble spot again. Line is submerged and we cannot see anything from that side either.

The tech's assessment is the line is broken/separated and still serviceable but it would be good to fix that trouble spot. The water does not subside because the soil is saturated with water? I did flush the toilet like 10 times before they came to rinse out the line so the camera will run into less debris.

I know for sure that there is a break in the line and in the past I also have the line jetted and they swept sand out of the line from that same spot.

Now that I know the exact spot of the problem. I am evaluating various methods of fixing it.

They said the best way is to start from the CO1 and tunnel in 20' and replace that line from the trouble spot all the way out, use pipe hangers at the bottom of the slab to fix the pipe. They will backfill by blasting pressurized wet sand.

I said why can't I dig from the side where it is only 4' from the wall? He said city will not allow digging from the side because the pipe may have sagged. I said we already video the line and we know the pipe is NOT sagged until we reached the trouble spot and in face it is not even offset or else the camera will not be able to make it through. It looks like the pipe is indeed separated but still in alignment. It sure looks like a spot fix will work in my opinion. But they said city code does not allow tunnel unless it starts from the CO outside.

I am thinking of cutting an internal opening from the floor above but my kitchen cabinet is right over that spot and my wife will not allow this messy fix and we have no matching floor tiles.

I am toying with the idea of tunneling from the side myself on a weekend to see what is going on...but the fact that water is saturated in that spot troubles me. It should have drained down the pipe, and it did not so it must be back pitched in some way.



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how long is the spot? could you not go through it one direction or the other?

i would call the building inspections and ask them if what the plumbing company told you is true. i have a hard time believing it myself

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PLUMBERS "Protecting The Health Of The Nation"

Sum did they run the depth???many locator cameras also will detect or allow you to detect depth. Could you post a layout of your home?just basic,is the garage on the left front ?just will help.and no they are full of it. tunneling is a non code , evaluated thing every where.[@#$%&[img199.imageshack.us]][/URL]



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Lemon it looks like this, but I don't think it really help much as I don't know how the pipes are tied in.



All I know is:

(1) I have 4 vents penetrating the roof, the kitchen sink has one, the laundry has one, and each of the baths has one.
(2) The trouble spot is upstream of the kitchen tie in.
(3) The laundry tie in is very close to where the pipe turns. The water jetter went up the laundry branch first and if he pulls it out a little and twists it goes back onto the main line. The trouble spot is at the turn and laundry tie in.
(4) That spot is exactly 20' north of the CO and 5' inside the west wall.
(5) The depth cannot be much. The outside CO when opened I can see water flowing past without even a flash light. The bottom of the pipe is 12-16 inches deep the most, which means the rest of the house is higher.

They told me the city will allow tunneling. However they have to do a soil sample and determine the sand compaction factor. They have to backfill with a wet sand blaster at a higher compaction rate.



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dlh the spot is may be 3-4' in length? I am not sure because their camera did not have distance calibration.

Now, WHY would the city care HOW it is excavated? You are being baffled by BS, because they cannot dazzle you with their brilliance. But you still do not know WHY and/or how much pipe is under water, nor WHY it is. To correct the situation, the pipe prior to the sag may have to be raised, or the pipe past it lowered, or the sagged pipe just regraded, or a combination of the three. Each scenarion involves digging a different area of the piping, and by the time the tunneling is done, you COULD have a basement.

A 4' section of pipe would have a hard time settling that much, ESPECIALLY if it is cast iron. If the camera did not have a distance measuring device, it was either not a very good machine, or he was trying to keep some information from you. A "good" machine would not only tell you how far, it would be traceable to tell you exactly WHERE it was, and how DEEP. All of which is necessary before you can even start to make an evaluation of how to fix it. And that laundry being connected to the end of a Y or combo is why the jetter went up it instead of turning the corner. ALWAYS a possibility when going upstream, depending on how the piping was installed.



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hj the pipes are all PVC. This is my current home and not my perpetual project home.

I can tell from the camera as he inserted the camera the pipe was dry for about 18' to 20'. Then we ran into this submerged trouble spot where the pipe makes a turn from north to east and there the laundry line ties into it as well. The secion of pipe appears to have a separation that I can tell from the camera but it's so fuzzy being in the water I can only see a bit of it at different spots but from all I can see I think there is some sort of separation.

If he continues to finess the camera he would either go up the laundry 2" line (which the jetter did and resulted in water shooting out of my roof vent) or able to make the turn to the east and then the line is cleared from there.

If I go from the upstream CO it will go all the way until it gets to the same trouble spot and he tried but was not able to make the turn and could not see why because of water being filled there as well.

So all this tells me that there is a separation of the pipe/fitting at that spot which is 20' north of the exit CO and 5' inside the house from the west wall. The fact that water filled that spot and did not drain further down tells me there is some sort of a sag but perhaps it's localized because the pipe before and after that spot is dry, and I don't see a gradual buildup of water leading into or trailing from that spot.

I think the fact that the laundry line is in the mix may be the reason why sand sometimes sweeps out of the line. The laundry line discharges so fast it pushes a lot of water down that 2" merging into the 3" and pulls sand from the separation, there is probably a "pocket" there from all the sand over the year, may be that is why it's sagged, the separation and the void.

The city does not care how it is excavated. They said the city needs to make sure the pipes are repaired to code, and the backfilling must be done at a compaction rate equal to or greater than the current sand/soil compaction factor. In order to prove that they must first hire a geotech service to come and extract an undisturbed insitu core soil sample, then do their analysis and provide a report, then if the soil is compacted a certain degree, they will have to blast wet slurry sand back under that tunnel to the same compaction, they cannot use the originally excavated soil to backfill and it can't be done by shovels. They called it VAC-CON Industrial Loaders?

I am going to get a quote from them in a day or two.

Will an inspector actually crawl inside the tunnel to inspect the fittings?

I think I can do the repair myself if I can get laborers to hand dig the tunnel...I am tempted anyways.

I certainly would NOT tell the inspectors I was doing it. It is none of their business, and it is to your benefit that it be done correctly. I have to ask you, since you have worked on plastic pipes already, HOW can a plastic pipe come apart when it slips into a hub for about 2 1/2" unless the pipes can slide apart, which is impossible if they were done correctly in the first place, and WHAT could cause 4' of pipe to drop 3 or 4 inches so the entire pipe would be filled with water? It would have to create "V" to do so.

i think there is more to your problem than you or your plumber realize.

hj, is correct in that there is no way a 4'-5' will have that much water in it, it would have to be 10'-20' or more that needs to be fixed

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PLUMBERS "Protecting The Health Of The Nation"

If there is a sagged V 10' to 20', would the line continue to function for over a year until it has to be jetted?

Assuming it is a long V, then it has to be distributed on to both sides of that break right? It is clearly not an offset, if we have an offset of 3 or 4 inches then there is no way a jetter could jet pass it, I would assume.

I am not sure how to proceed.

I got the quote from the plumber. To tunnel and fix it locally by digging from the west side is $4000 with backfill sand blasting, and to tunnel from the downstream CO and dig up to 20', fix the pipes and backfill is double that. If the problem goes beyond 20' then I guess there will be additional fees.

yes it could continue to work as there is only 3'-4' actually under water.

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PLUMBERS "Protecting The Health Of The Nation"