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Author:
sum (FL)
I have this configuration.
The toilet is in the north east draining in a south west direction. Line is 3" PVC.
I want to put a 3"x2" wye where the branch will be inline directly south of the 2" shower drain.
The 2" vent will be on the south wall. It will tie into the shower line with a 2" wye, crossing over the toilet line. I have room to cross over the toilet line because I am going to roll the 3x2 wye up 45 degrees. However, once I roll it up 45 degrees, it is no longer facing the shower line directly north of it...what is the proper fitting I need to tie them together?
I can easily make it work if I don't roll it up (and the code does not require me to) but I think it's better to roll it up.
Note that the green line is a 2" vent, it is NOT a drain there is no lav draining to it. The lav used to drain to it but has been repositioned further away and converted into a double lav, and now they drain independently into another line. Although the lavs still vent through this 2" line and are connected in the attic. So this green 2" line will have no water flowing through it.
Another option is to run the toilet line west, the turn south, thus the vent and shower line will be on the same side, they can tie together first then merge with the toilet line, but then the shower will drain via a 180 loop which I prefer to not do.
Edited 1 times.
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Author:
waukeshaplumbing (WI)
by not making that 2" vent a wetvent it is not code legal...its now just a vent for the shower and not the toilet.
if it was a wet vent it would be called a 'bathroom group' or a 'horizontal wet vent'....what you show now is an 'individual vent' for the shower only...atleast by WI code
put the vent between the toilet and the shower Y...use a 3x2 T facing up
Edited 1 times.
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Author:
waukeshaplumbing (WI)
Im not saying there is a big difference, but its not the code ..for that to be considered a 'horizontal wet vent' it must be wet...no such thing as a horizontal dry vent
your toilet needs to be vented no matter where you are...even in Mexico
the way you have it drawn it could also be a circuit vent, but then would need to be 3" to point of vent and need a cleanout in the floor.
maybe codes are different elsewhere...i cant do it here in WI
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Author:
sum (FL)
I think I made a mistake in my illustrations above on the wet venting. I got confused. Let me try again. This should reflect what my configuration is doing.
In this context, can we not consider the shower being the "wet venting" fixture, and the toilet the "wet vented" fixture?
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Author:
hj
The fitting you need is a 60 or 1/6 bend. But even better might be a street 90 rolling back towards the wall.
Edited 1 times.
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Author:
hj
Yes, but in that picture, the shower vent is vertical, not horizontal before it turns vertical.
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Author:
waukeshaplumbing (WI)
WI code does not allow what you are doing. your toilet is not vented.
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Author:
sum (FL)
My first picture shows the shower vent to be horizontal (almost) before it turns vertical.
The schematic shows the shower vent vertical.
But does this matter if the vent line stays completely dry? I guess my confusion is why having something drain down that vent is better. Being dry all the time guarantees you will never have flow that may seal off the space, ever...unless a rodent runs down there and got stuck.
Fundamentally, what I am hearing is if the 2" vent has a lav fixture connected to it, then the toilet is wet vented, but if it does not have a lav connected, then it is not vented. That is what does not make sense to me.
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Author:
A1APLBG (GA)
Sum, Your last picture meets florida code as long as that vent is a combo turned straight up. The trap can't be more than 6 feet from the vent and the tolet can not be more than 10 feet from the wye. THE TOLET IS VENTED.
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Author:
Shoemaker2 (MA)
Where are you tying in the sink?
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Author:
sum (FL)
To another line that happens to exit the house about 12 feet away. I have three lines exiting the house independently and merge into one line under the driveway.
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Author:
dlh (TX)
if you tie the sink in on the vent above the floor then it would be legal. you can not have a horizontal vent pipe that does not have water running through it below the flood rim of the highest fixture. below that point if the sewer line backs up it will clog the vent eventually, but not if water goes down it to wash the vent out
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PLUMBERS "Protecting The Health Of The Nation"
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Author:
sum (FL)
That's the way I had it before, but the lavs are so far away there is a 2" horizontal pipe that runs 11' across the wall, making it impossible to frame the studs there without building excessively out. I end up removing that line and tie them to another line which happens to be right underneath.
So now I have the shower and toilet by themselves.
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Author:
sum (FL)
I am not sure I have enough vertical clearance between the pipe and the bottom of the slab to turn a combo straight up and add to it a 90 to turn it horizontal.
Obviously I need to rethink.
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Author:
sum (FL)
This is probably my only option?
I am not sure I have enough room above the 3" pipe to roll the combo straight up...
Edited 2 times.
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Author:
dlh (TX)
how far is the shower p-trap from where you want to take the vent up? if it isnt to far away i would just put a 45 in the wye making an "h" fitting like i showed a while back then roll that up above the mid point of the drain line then go over turn up with a 45, put a san tee on the 45 run the trap out then 45 to get back to straight up in the wall for the vent
like this
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PLUMBERS "Protecting The Health Of The Nation"
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Author:
sum (FL)
This is the west half of the bath showing where the shower, toilet will be. The vent on the south side is existing and it goes through the roof and cannot be moved. The SW corner (shown in red) is an existing 3" CI line that is dedicated only to this bathroom. Right now this line is sticking 24" inside but I can cut it back to wherever I want all the way to the wall.
The shower drain is about 3.5' from the wall. The toilet is 6'10" from the west wall. Those are the only two fixtures to drain into this line.
I would like to avoid running additional pipes up the wall and try to use the 2" vent line on the south wall to vent them all.
If I had a lav running down the lower portion of that 2" vent I know how to plumb this. But I don't now I am a bit puzzled. I thought it would made it easier but it seems it's harder.
Edited 1 times.
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Author:
hj
The problem with the flat "dry" vent is that it DOES have water and possible sewage in it when the line has a stoppage. THAT material may stay behind when the stoppage is eliminated. It can happen every time there is a backup, and thus can eventually become obstructed. When it is a "wet" vent, there is water flow from the other device which keeps it flushed out.
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Author:
hj
It does NOT have to be vertical, just above horizontal.
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Author:
hj
There could be several ways to do it, but "I don't know if I have enough room", would determine which are the most pracical. For example, given enough height, putting the Y further downstream and rotating it to the opposite side, then running from the sewer TO the vent, and finally arming back to the trap might be a possibility.
Edited 1 times.
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Author:
sum (FL)
I was referring to A1APLBG's comment that:
Quote:Sum, Your last picture meets florida code as long as that vent is a combo turned straight up. The trap can't be more than 6 feet from the vent and the tolet can not be more than 10 feet from the wye. THE TOLET IS VENTED.
the part about the combo turned straight up.
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Author:
sum (FL)
I have to go and measure it, but I think the critical dimension is the vertical distance between the existing 3" CI pipe on the SW side and the bottom of the slab. Everything else is flexible. I can even change where the vent 90 elbow comes off horizontally (raise or lower) to make things work.
I think from the bottom of the slab to the 3" CI line I have about 7 inches (measure to the center of the 3" pipe not the top or invert) but I am not absolutely sure. I will measure and report back. Also there are 3 copper lines cris-crossing underground that may make things a bit challenging if they happen to be in the way, but they are soft copper and can be nudged a bit, and worst comes to worst I can redo the copper lines since they are all exposed.
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Author:
sum (FL)
dlh if I do that...
The shower trap is less than 4' from the vent, but let's say 1/4" per ft so it's 1" to get to the vent line. If I tie in a sanitary tee there, I just checked the Charlotte PVC fitting catalog, that would take me down further by 3-11/16", then I will take a long sweep 90 ell with the street end up into the bottom hub of the san tee, that will be another 4-1/8" or so, that horizontal line would then slope back to the toilet 3" line, at about 1/4" per foot I will lose another 1", and depends on whether I roll up the wye to it. Total would be 10" I need to do this. If I use a short sweep el or roll the san tee a bit as you suggested I can shorten this more...by how much I am not sure. Let me do some measurements.
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Author:
dlh (TX)
quit thinking about using 90's to turn up with. what i suggested is to use a street 45 connect the san teen to that (the tee it self will come up t a 45* angle with the side inlet looking straight out towards the p-trap) then another street 45 in the top of the san tee to get the vent back to vertical. with 2" pipe it shouldnt take more than 6" to get vertical. basically you are making a long long sweep using 2 45's with a san tee stuck between them
like this
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PLUMBERS "Protecting The Health Of The Nation"
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Author:
sum (FL)
I understand. I still need to check how much room and possible interference, as I might not be able to connect these fittings with the vent being recessed into the concrete block. I will need to go to the house today and take a closer look at the depths and other items in place. Will report back with pics.
By the way you guys told me no san tee on it's back and no combo sitting vertical. So this san tee tilting 45 degrees is it kosher?
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Author:
hj
I am sure what you wrote makes sense to you, but it completely befuddles me trying to keep track of which way things would be rolled.
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Author:
hj
And HE is saying that the vent has to go "down/South" to connect with an existing vent. Not vertical.
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Author:
hj
No san tee in a horizontal line, regardless of whether it is vertical or not. Combos okay in ANY direction, as long as stuff can drain through it, i.e., it cannot point downhill if it is a drain application.
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Author:
hj
And that is NOT a requirement. In fact it usually only happens when the line crosses under a wall so the vent will rise up through it.
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Author:
sum (FL)
If nothing else work I would just punch a hole in the exterior wall 21" above grade, pass a 1-1/2" pipe through and install a trap on the outside and fill it with water.
If people walking dogs pass by and ask me what it is, I will tell them it's a pseudo wet vent adapter.
Wait...if I remove the hood on top of the vent pipe on the roof, and let rain drops down that vent, then it is a wet vent all the way.
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Author:
hj
The Y at the tie in can be flat/horizontal, it does not need to be "rolled up", and there would be no benefit to doing it either.
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Author:
hj
quote; If people walking dogs pass by and ask me what it is, I will tell them it's a pseudo wet vent adapter.
Or a "pissoir" which you imported from Paris.
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Author:
LemonPlumber (FL)
Sum .If the three by two was tilted to 45 degrees?you could have a dry vent section legal but why?The toilet would be excluded and would make the dry vent section straight through the roof necessary.
----
Good Luck. Insulate your hot piping, although costly, it will pay you back every day.
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Author:
sum (FL)
Lemon what do you mean by the toilet excluded?
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Author:
sum (FL)
I cannot run a new stack on the face of the wall because right over that is a truss and so it would mean I have to cut a notch out of the bottom chord I would rather not transfer the problems from below to above. Also the original vent is being tied into above the ceiling from the lav vents.
What I may be able to do is to go from where the vent was cut, and do two 45s and offset the vent out to the face of the wall for the lower third of the way.
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Author:
hj
You are getting into the area where WE could make a decision as to how to do it the most efficient way, but it gets cumbersome trying to describe using 45's, sanitary tees on a bias, and other fittings to put the line in as low as possible so your 2" drop would work, but it does not have to be 2" at the sides, since the floor will slope to the center.
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Author:
hj
You haven't read many Lemon postings have you? If so, is this the FIRST reply you have questioned?
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Author:
sum (FL)
I think one critical deciding factor which I am unsure about is if I do put in that leaning 45 degree san-tee with two 45 elbows, does the entire contraption need to be below the slab or can part of it be embedded in the slab. In other words, can I position it such that the top of the san-tee inlet is just below the bottom of the slab, making the joint right above it to be embedded in the slab.
In other words, is configuration B below ok if that's the only way it would work?
I remember reading somewhere that fittings should not be in embedded in a slab only a vertical pipe section wrapped in a sleeve.
Edited 2 times.
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Author:
hj
Horizontal pipes should not be imbedded in concrete because it causes a "fault line" which can cause a crack. "A" using either a streey 45 and a regular tee, or a regular 45 and a street tee, should make the lateral line low enough that it just clears going over the 3" line and well below the concrete.
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Author:
sum (FL)
When I lay it out, I should start at the fixed downstream 3" CI pipe and work upstream, yes? This would ensure everything is lowest?
or should I work from the bottom of the vent and down, and if I have any extra vertical distance by the time I get to the wye to tie into the 3", I can roll the branch up a little to take up the slack?
Which way is better? I am thinking first approach?
This would be my weekend project.
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Author:
hj
Working from the connection "upward" is almost always the best way, unless you are working under some special condition that forces you to secure the "end" point and then work back to the connection.
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Author:
A1APLBG (GA)
Sum? how far do you live from Daytona? Me and My friend are going to come finish your plumbing. lol If not for anything else but to see this house.
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Author:
hj
If you are going to finish Sum's house, how many years do you plan on staying in his area? I think he has already started to remodel the first things he did. If he doesn't give you an address, just go to his city and start following the pickup trucks with magnetic "Plumbing" signs on the doors. Eventually they will take you to his house.
Edited 1 times.
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Author:
sum (FL)
i am down south in miami LOL probably 3 hours drive from Daytona to the "money pit".
Edited 1 times.
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Author:
sum (FL)
well, I did not get to plumb the inside pipes this weekend. I prepared the area, removed the abandoned CI pipes there. It looks like I will have room to make this work.
I started the work on the outside of the house where the 3" CI pipe comes out of the driveway. The test tee there was corroded and the threads were gone. I decided to replace that fitting and transition to PVC on the outside then moves inside.
This was the original configuration.
So today I removed the horizontal section comes out of the wall, the 45 elbow, the test tee, and replaced with new parts. This should have been trivial, but when I removed the test tee, I used a razor blade to cut away the old rubber sleeve of the no hub coupling, peeled the sleeve off, the removed the test tee, somehow in doing so, the test tee cracked, along with the section of pipe below. I don't know how this could have happened, no hammering or chiseling was done, just loosening of the screws, pushed away the metal bands, cut the sleeve with a razor blade and nudged the fitting out. No force at all. Yet the piece of pipe below, had a crack that started from the lip of the pipe down about 2 to 3 inches. I decided to ignore it, and still replaced the fittings upstream of it, and instead used a wider heay duty no hub coupling to hold it together.
So here is what it looks like now. Once upstream of the 45 elbow, I used a Fernco PROFLEX transition coupling to go to the PVC pipe, the pipe goes through the 12" thick wall, and sticks 6" beyond the inside wall, the starting point of the inside project.
I used three types of couplings there. A heavy duty no hub coupling because of the crack on the lower pipe. Then a regular no hub coupling between the test tee and the elbow, then a PROFLEX to transition from CI elbow to PVC.
Here is the location of the crack:
I tested it and it did not leak so I am hoping this is OK.
This PVC pipe ends inside and I will start from there.
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Author:
hj
Any crack you found while taking the pipes apart has been there for a long time. But the nature of cast iron cracks is that corrosion occurs inside the crack, causing it to progress up the pipe, and I doubt that even the "deluxe" coupling will be strong enough to prevent it.
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Author:
sum (FL)
When I took it apart, I did not see any cracks. But then again, the fittings were all brown and rough so cracks could be there and not easily seen.
I merely rocked it gently to take it out of the sleeve, and I noticed a big crack as I laid it on the concrete driveway. I was not concerned as that fitting I am replacing anyways. What concerned me was I looked at the pipe below that, and it had a small crack about 2" in length. See this diagram.
I replaced "B" and "C" with new CI fittings, "A" is now in PVC. Pipe "D" is the one with the crack as illustrated in black. I used the HD coupling as it is wider and may support it better. I did not excavate below to see what pipe "D" is, whether it is a straight pipe or a branch of some fitting I am insure. So you are saying this crack may expand lengthwise as corrosion build up inside the pipe?
I thought about digging deeper and perhaps replace that pipe or fitting but space is limited and I have too many projects already. I will deal with it when I have to. Hopefully it is just a section of pipe and not the top of some no hub fitting.
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Author:
hj
Yes. Corrosion will develop immense pressure, just as tree roots do, and the crack will probably continue over time.
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Author:
sum (FL)
Since this pipe is only cracked for a very short amount at this moment, would it help at all to prevent further corrosion by sanding the inside and outside of the crack as much as possible to get the rust and scales off, then apply a coat of bondo or epoxy over the crack from both sides?
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Author:
dlh (TX)
i dont know. you could try it. it sounds like it will work
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PLUMBERS "Protecting The Health Of The Nation"
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