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 Plumbing in a wet bar in basement!
Author: Why_I_DIY (CO)

Hello everyone,

Background information, about my skills. I completely replaced the plumbing DWV system copper and ABS in a house with 1 bath, laundry room and kitchen from the main sewer drain (cast iron) and incoming water line That was 3/4 flexible copper tubing that was originally just laying in the dirt of the crawl space with at least 10 patches along the way. Long story short I passed all my inspections with an "I don't have time to answer your questions" type inspector. I also rewired the same house from meter mast to ground rod, I also passed all those inspections. I read a “for pros by pros” plumbing book like a bible thumper reads the bible.

I'm adding a wet bar to my basement it seems pretty straight forward. I plan to place my sink base centered in front of the main drain (3” ABS) that runs into my basement slab so one principal of plumbing is satisfied "stuff" doesn't have to go uphill. The main supply lines (¾ copper) are within 3 feet of my intended fixture location. My bar area is in front of a ½ crawl space with a 20” high poured knee-wall. The trap for a bath on the sunken story is at about head level. To get a better Idea of my house layout the basement is under my kitchen, dinning etc, there are 3 steps down to the sunken family room which is above my crawl space. A semi split level design.

img [www.3070-ict-in-circuit-consulting-training.com-a.googlepages.com] /img

Finally my questions

The main cleanout is too low 4” from my finished flooring to be accessed through the cabinet. Can I cut out the cleanout and raise it to 10”? I also plan to install a 3X2 ABS COMB TEE/WYE, a 2” P trap etc and a 3X2 ABS SANITARY TEE for my vent. My floor is floating and I live in an area that “may” have expansive soils where is the best place to use a rubber fitting to allow for the slab to rise or fall? I’m thinking that a rubber P trap would be best. My sink base will sit on the floating slab. (I have monitored my slab for 10 years and it has not budged) That’s not to say that I’m not going to build with slab movement planned for.



I plan to run a 2” 3X2 ABS SANITARY TEE vent into the 3” stack which is about 42” above the flood level of my intended bar sink and 27” behind the sink. There is a toilet up stream on this 3” So would I need to T in above the toilet? Do I even need a vent? It seems that it is possible that “stuff” could run down my vent but it would end up back in the main drain. This is something I’m not sure about.

My fridge will be beside my sink base can I use the same type of “T” shutoff typically used for a dishwasher supply line for my Icemaker? I plan to use stainless hoses for my faucet connections to allow for slab movement.

What about a Urinal for my man cave? No concrete busting required…Opinions My wife says no… I do have a funnel, some tubing , a floor drain and the water heater needs to be flushed on a regular basis. I can hang it from my poured knee wall so slab movement is not a factor.

I have some pictures if that would help. [www.3070-ict-in-circuit-consulting-training.com-a.googlepages.com] Thanks in advance for your answers. Note I’m unemployed so paying someone is out of the question.

My Code
PLUMBING CODE
Sections:
15.20.010 International Plumbing Code – Adopted.
15.20.020 Modifications to the International Plumbing Code, 2006 Edition.

G. Section 109 is deleted in its entirety.
H. Section 312.9 is deleted in its entirety.
J. Section 904.1 is amended by inserting the numbers “6 inches (152.4 mm)” in the brackets.
K. Section 904.6 is deleted in its entirety.
L. Section 905.4 is amended to read as follows:
Current as of 02/29/2008 Page 15-39
905.4 Vertical rise of vent. Every dry vent shall rise vertically to a minimum of 6 inches (152 mm) above the flood level rim of the highest trap or trapped fixture being vented, unless drainage fittings are used.
Exception: Vents for interceptors located outdoors.
M. Section 908.2 is amended to read as follows:
908.2 Connection at the same level. Where the fixture drains being common vented connect at the same level, the vent connection shall be at the interconnection of the fixture drains.



Edited 2 times.

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 Re: Plumbing in a wet bar in basement!
Author: North Carolina Plumber (NC)

You can not have any drainage flowing past your tee you are using for the vent. It must tie into a dry pipe. Other than that I think you'll be ok.

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 Re: Plumbing in a wet bar in basement!
Author: packy

do pay any attention to the labels as thgis drawing is for something else. BUT, the piping is the same whether it is a washer or a sink.
put your 3" cleanout back as you have described and put a cleanout into the sink drain as well.
3 x 1 1/2 TY is adequate for a bar sink and the vent can be 1 1/2 as well.
[smg.photobucket.com]

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 Re: Plumbing in a wet bar in basement!
Author: hj

I hope you do not expect us to look up those code references, or even pore through them if you had posted the text. You are correct that waste could run down the vent if you tie it into the drain line below the toilet or any other drain connection. That is EXACTLY the reason you cannot do it. You have to tie into an existing vent 42" above the floor AND, not or, 6" above any fixture's overflow level which is attached to that vent.

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 Re: Plumbing in a wet bar in basement!
Author: Why_I_DIY (CO)

Thanks. That's what I thought about the vent it would be in a flood plain so to speak. Should I put the Air Admittance valve (cheater vent, Studor Valve) in the crawl space or put it inside the sink base as high as possible? I know that the Air entrance valve can not be concealed so if it's OK in an attic it should be ok in a crawl space. Why would I need a clean out on the sink drain when or did you mean a cleanout on the existing vertical 3" main. My local code allows Air Admittance Valves.

NO I didn't expect anyone to "pour" or even "piss" on the code I put it there as a reference.

Thanks everyone.

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 Re: Plumbing in a wet bar in basement!
Author: x apprentice 22 (MA)

I am not a big fan of studor vents becaues they can fail and leak sewer gases into the basement and they only vent one way.you could run a vent to a outside wall and go up the outside above the windows and other openings.you could get air pressure and sewer gas could bubble up the bar sink drain.outside vents can clog with frost and are usually over sized to prevent frost closure.





good luck.



Edited 1 times.

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 Re: Plumbing in a wet bar in basement!
Author: packy

if studor vents are allowed in your area, use one under the sink. i don't like them either but as long as it is accessable, it isn't the end of the world.
cleanouts are nice to have. not required on that sink drain.

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 Re: Plumbing in a wet bar in basement!
Author: Why_I_DIY (CO)

My code does not allow vents to run on outside walls i.e. up the outside of the house. I plan to put my Studor vent inside a utility room adjacant to the bar area. I will not be using a cheapo depot cheapy AAV. I thought the purpose of a vent was to assist in the drainage process "No thumb on top of a drinking straw" as opposed to venting like a gas appliance flue so by design AAV's only allow air in not out.

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 Re: Plumbing in a wet bar in basement!
Author: dlh (TX)

vents do not assist in the drainage process, they prevent traps down stream from being sucked dry as the water and effluent rush by them but the drinking straw experiment is why we dont particularly like aav's as there is positive and negative air flows in a drain line and the aav's can only address one of these

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PLUMBERS "Protecting The Health Of The Nation"

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 Re: Plumbing in a wet bar in basement!
Author: hj

Just because "they allow them" does not mean it is the right option for you situation. An AAV ONLY relieves negative pressure. The toilets and other fixtures above your bar sink will create positive pressures which an AAV is powerless to control.

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 Re: Plumbing in a wet bar in basement!
Author: hj

Cheapo, or "rolls royce", AAV neither will work properly in your situation.

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 Re: Plumbing in a wet bar in basement!
Author: Why_I_DIY (CO)

I see the potential problem when toilets are flushed the rush of waste and water could create a siphon and suck the bar sink trap dry an AAV would help prevent this. The positive pressure could cause a burp in the sink. If this were new construction then running a vent would not be a problem. I have three options. Run the vent horizontal about 6 feet then go vertical and tie into the sink vent in the bath room above and behind my bar. Run the vent up a decorative chase to the attic and tie into the main vent. In either of these options there are firestops, and finshed walls to deal with. Or a third option run a traditional vent drain system and have about 8 feet of 2" vent pipe to act as a reservoir with a AAV as high as possible while still being accessible. The simple diagram [smg.photobucket.com] The vent would be higher than the toilet above the wet bar (the washer in the digram) The AAV would be about 6" above the tub flood level above and also be easily accessible. The vent and drain piping would act as a reservoir for the excess pressure. There are 2 3" stacks in close proximity to this location wouldn't those offset the positve pressure. I would think it would take a perfect storm of 3 toilets and 3 showers all draining at the same time to cause a problem. This house is 10 years old and it has 3 roof top vents 2 3" and 1 2".



Edited 3 times.

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 Re: Plumbing in a wet bar in basement!
Author: dlh (TX)

we would need to be there to determine what would be the best way to go. we are not saying dont use an aav but we would rather see you tie it into an existing vent from another fixture on the same floor or take it out the roof. you will have problems with an aav guaranteed where as you wont with an atmospheric vent

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PLUMBERS "Protecting The Health Of The Nation"

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 Re: Plumbing in a wet bar in basement!
Author: Why_I_DIY (CO)

Thanks for all your post. My main goal is to do it right. I am a firm beleiver that "code" is a bare minimum, hence the name Why_I_DYI I have found so many instances of poor workmanship and cost cutting measures in my house i.e. "wish nailing", non bearing walls on 24" centers, caulk in lieu of craftsmanship, cheap low quality plumbing and lighting fixtures to name a few. I must say that my mechanical system is a quality installation of course he put his name on the furnace not some corporate name that changes with every lawsuit. Ok enough venting lol.

I understand that an AAV is a mechanical device that "may" fail. While less likely to fail a through the roof vent could also become obstructed. From the research that I have done it seems that AAV's are being over used as a corner cutting device in new construction some are even terminated in the attic. I would put mine ina very accessible location. An AAV device should be inspected the problem is that most homeowners don't have a clue. For example why are floor traps required to have primers because homeowners don't have a clue. I was doing some work at my brother in-laws house and I noticed a sewer smell that was very strong in the laundry room. I poured a quart of water in the floor drain no more smell. I told him to add water to the drain once a month to prevent it from evaporating again. Codes evolve to protect us from ourselves in addition to needs created by device manufacturing comapnies i.e. the companies that make AAV's and floor trap primers.

The fixture will be on a lower floor than any of the existing vented fixtures. The HVAC main trunk is in the way of any practical connection to the existing vent for the bath above. To vent out through an existing roof vent requires going up 2 1/2 stories with no practical way to test the new vent for leaks, Not that what I install would leak. I really don't understand how an $85 dollar device is chaeper than some ABS and a few fittings in new construction. Except that it saves labor cost.

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 Re: Plumbing in a wet bar in basement!
Author: dlh (TX)

for one it is not it "may" fail, it is a matter of when it will fail and it wont be long.

"normal" vents very rarely get obstructed an when they do it is usually a symptom of another problem

and where did you find an aav for $85 ?

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PLUMBERS "Protecting The Health Of The Nation"

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 Re: Plumbing in a wet bar in basement!
Author: hj

Tieing into the sink vent "above and behind" the bar sounds like a good alternative, but that does not mean it would be a proper connection since we cannot tell how you would do it.

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 Re: Plumbing in a wet bar in basement!
Author: hj

The MAJORITY of "improvements", such as plastic drain and water system, have been labor saving, since that is one of the largest expenses. In the 50's labor was inexpensive and therefore galvanized piping was used almost exclusively. As labor rates rose, copper, although it was more expensive, became the cheaper way because of the reduction in labor.

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 Re: Plumbing in a wet bar in basement!
Author: jimmy-o (CA)

I do think that it was also recognized that copper was a better material.

Copper became the norm here in San Diego area by 1950. And my childhood home, built in 1946, was all copper. It was done by a local builder, and I couldn't say if cost of material, or cost of labor, was influential in that decision.

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 Re: Plumbing in a wet bar in basement!
Author: Why_I_DIY (CO)

Imagine plumbing a DWV system with copper at todays copper and labor cost. The avearge house would have one bath with the kitchen sink adjacant to it.

As far as AAV's failing what data do you have to back up your claim? I would bet that the majority of AAV failures are due to improper installation. i.e. installed in an attic and being covered with blown in insulation or being blasted with spray on texture and paint.

I used to work in electronics manufacturing before corporate America outsourced my job(s) to Asia. 99% of circuit board failures were caused by bad proceses not bad parts.

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 Re: Plumbing in a wet bar in basement!
Author: dlh (TX)

the part isnt usually bad per-say, it is just they are inherently a bad product but have the best engineering it can at this point in time.

they are usually installed to the manufactures specifications but do to things like drain clogs and the fluctuations in the drain system they just dont last.

i dont have any statistical data but i do know that people smelling sewer gas or the drain not working properly with an aav present, replace it and the drain functions the way it should although about 10% of the time drains that have aav's arent working properly it is actually a clogged line

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PLUMBERS "Protecting The Health Of The Nation"

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 Re: Plumbing in a wet bar in basement!
Author: Why_I_DIY (CO)

I would venture to say that drain clogs are the majority problem in domestic DWV systems. At least it is in my house. I have an example of a poor design that passes code. An open stand pipe for a dishwasher discharge. When the kitchen sink drain clogged and the disposer was fired up the clog caused the waste to backup and pour out of the open stand pipe. I eliminated this problem I capped the open stand pipe and installed an airgap on the dishwasher discharge house and connected it to the disposer. Does it prevent clogs? No. Does it prevent waste from pouring out under my cabinets and hardwood floor? Yes

If you shotgun replace an AAV and it is not defective nor is it the cause of the service call do you charge the customer for it?

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 Re: Plumbing in a wet bar in basement!
Author: hj

Copper was a better material, but that was inconsequential, because the only thing the contractors were concerned about is that it lasted for the one year warranty.

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 Re: Plumbing in a wet bar in basement!
Author: dlh (TX)

"If you shotgun replace an AAV and it is not defective nor is it the cause of the service call do you charge the customer for it?"

that is a loaded question, but yes i would make them pay for it because i would make sure that is the problem before i replaced it.

many plumbers would just replace it without diagnosing the real problem first and yes they would charge the customer for it and say that it was bad also.

as far as the standpipe issue you had, i have seen that kind of plumbing in many older houses (50's or so) and you did exactly what i would have done even if there is no disposer i would install a tailpiece on teh drain that will accept the d.w. hose

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PLUMBERS "Protecting The Health Of The Nation"

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 Re: Plumbing in a wet bar in basement!
Author: hj

And do you remember when Zenith advertised that ALL their TVs were made by hand? Then you had to hope the set was not made by someone who had been to a wild party the night before. Their quality control problems went away when they went to machine assembled circuit boards.



Edited 1 times.

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 Re: Plumbing in a wet bar in basement!
Author: hj

An open standpipe inside the cabinet for a dishwasher drain would NEVER pass code here, for the very reason you specify. The standpipe would have to be above the counter top, so that when the disposer caused an overflow, you would know it and turn the disposer off immediately.

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 Re: Plumbing in a wet bar in basement!
Author: hj

"If you shotgun replace an AAV and it is not defective nor is it the cause of the service call do you charge the customer for it?"

If that is how you do your repairs then you probably also do not test electric water heaters to find the problem, but just start changing parts until it starts working. And charge for all the parts used, besides.



Edited 1 times.

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 Re: Plumbing in a wet bar in basement!
Author: dlh (TX)

it was ok by the code they had around here 50+ years ago byt not now so i do run into this every so often

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PLUMBERS "Protecting The Health Of The Nation"

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 Re: Plumbing in a wet bar in basement!
Author: Why_I_DIY (CO)

This stand pipe was in my 10 year old house go figure. I do not shotgun diagnose period! I have seen too many shotgun repair attempts where I have had to go behind the "hunter" and fix all the screwups so that I could diagnose the original problem.

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 Re: Plumbing in a wet bar in basement!
Author: dlh (TX)

and there you have it.

very few on here diagnose like that if you havent noticed yet

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PLUMBERS "Protecting The Health Of The Nation"

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