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 Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: sum (FL)

OK I posted a thread some time ago about relocating supplies and drains and many of you helped identified many issues. Here is a picture of the work done then:



I paid that plumber. Now I am paying a second plumber to fix the first plumber's mistakes. This is what he did. Can you take a look and let me know if I found someone that I can rely on to do bathroom 2, 3 and 4?

He widened the trench and took the 3" vent line and made it into the main line, then he route the sink 2" vent line and runs it back around a loop to tie into the main line, along that loop picked up the toilet and shower. He threw out a lot of old cast iron pipe underneath.



another view of the drain configuration:



where he ties into the old CI line he used a no hub coupling (is that right redwood?):



He added a cleanout to the 3" line on the other side of the wall (garage).





Any comments? Did he do a good job, or no?

Thanks for your time!



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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: dlh (TX)

he is a keeper !

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PLUMBERS "Protecting The Health Of The Nation"

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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: redwood (CT)

Yes Sum, that is a no-hub... It looks a lot better than the last one! The only thing I don't really care for is the lav sink line all that curving around but there is probably not much choice since its wet venting the shower... I'd say he's a keeper!

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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: AlmstAJrnyman (HI)

I dont like it. But what do i know

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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: dlh (TX)

1000% better than the last guy she had. that is the first picture

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PLUMBERS "Protecting The Health Of The Nation"

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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: birddoggiest (ID)

how is the floor drain vented?

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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: sum (FL)

birddoggiest do you mean the toilet when you say floor drain?

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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: dlh (TX)

what floor drain?

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PLUMBERS "Protecting The Health Of The Nation"

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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: sum (FL)

Now that the trench is widened to almost 4 feet, I think it will need some sort of rebar reinforcement.

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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: AlmstAJrnyman (HI)

Heres what i see.
1. The laundry trap to vent distance should be checked
2. Toilet is wet vented horizontally by shower and lav.
3. I cant see any primer on joints (could have used clear)
4. Laundry tray has 1/4 bend on horizontal to horizontal

what you guys think?

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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: AlmstAJrnyman (HI)

toilet wet vent is flat too. Shouldent the y be pitched at a 45?

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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: dlh (TX)

1. The laundry trap to vent distance should be checked

looks like about 5' going by 16" on center for the studs

2. Toilet is wet vented horizontally by shower and lav.

they rolled up off the gut line for the vent

3. I cant see any primer on joints (could have used clear)

i agree here. hope it is clear or just dry fitted

4. Laundry tray has 1/4 bend on horizontal to horizontal

laundry tray where? i dont even see a 1/4 bend except in the first pic which was the other plumbers work and has been re-done

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PLUMBERS "Protecting The Health Of The Nation"

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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: dlh (TX)

it doesnt necessarily need to be 45* just the bottom of the vent should be at least to the middle of the drain pipe or higher

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PLUMBERS "Protecting The Health Of The Nation"

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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: birddoggiest (ID)

The floor drain is a shower drain. The wet vent should be developed in the vertical position and be sized one pipe size larger than the drain required (3";). The WYE to the shower needs to be vertical not horizontal. Horizontal wet venting no more than 6' total developed vent lenth is leagel in Idaho but not normally by the UPC. Codes may be different in your state. That being said it should work fine.



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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: joint-runner (MA)

The Showers not vented...A wet vent must be pulled before the shower..also I see no dandy...how did he test his work?.also again I see another drain off the lav...Kitchen?..can't wet vent via a kitchen sink.The line going to the should be rolled up and that line go to the shower..the line then going to the shower should go to the lav...it's not vented this way.



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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: dlh (TX)

the line going to the what should be the shower vent? the other line that the washer drains to? if so then you are wrong because you cant drain the washer over the shower and is why it is done the way it is and is perfectly fine vent wise

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PLUMBERS "Protecting The Health Of The Nation"

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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: hj (AZ)

2 minor issues. You still have a Fernco rubber coupling in the wall where the 3" PVC connects to the cast iron, and what is that "thing" at the No-Hub coupling. The PVC pipe should have been inserted into the coupling, but that looks like it could be a male thread adapter.

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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: plumb-bobII (VA)

Hj, that "thing" is a no-hub x pvc adapter, mandatory in some places around here. Can't figure out why he didn't use it on the vertical stack. No primer? And how was the work tested???
Also, is that a sink or laundry tub next to the washer? Might be too high of a rough in if a laundry tub?





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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: packy (MA)

joint runner is 100% right. you can't vent a fixture out the back of a "Y". the shower is not vented properly!
the laundry is not vented either.
BUT, what matters is the opinion of the local inspector.
i wouldn't use this plumber. he/she doesn't have a basic grasp of proper venting. i would never have run the lav drain like a big banana.
also, as joint runner pointed out, what about cleanouts? how will this job be tested?
sorry to be critical, but you asked what we thought.
see here for direction of flow thru a "Y with the vent coming off the branch. the branch MUST be rolled up to keep debris from accumulating or you will lose your vent!! this is basic plumbing 101. anyone who doesn't understand this should be back in the shop putting fittings into their bins.
[smg.photobucket.com]
note, disregard sizes as this drawing is not for underground. 2" is minimum size underground.

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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: dlh (TX)

remember packy sum isnt in MA.

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PLUMBERS "Protecting The Health Of The Nation"

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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: packy (MA)

and he can thank his lucky stars for that. mass is the only state to have lost population for 2 years in a row.

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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: North Carolina Plumber (NC)

Ask a dozen plumbers how it should be done and you'll get 13 different answers. Everything looks pretty good to me, here in NC we would have to use purple primer on the joints. The shower trap is being wet vented with the lavatory drain, thats ok. trap to vent distances look good. Don't forget to wrap the toilet pipe before you pour the floor back, that way you can slip a flange down over the outside of the pipe.

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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: sum (FL)

To answer a few questions I have annotated the images.



Further to the left is the laundry sink and the washer drain:



I think I need to clarify a few things. First, the original plumber I hired did all the copper pipes, relocated the manifold, connected the laundry sink and washer drains to the 3" CI pipe. That was his work. He cut out the middle section of the 3" CI vent and added the two connections.

The new plumber I hired this week was hired to rework the drain configuration below grade. He looked at the laundry lines and said basically it should work and I could leave it alone (so I did), he suggested that I swap the washer drain higher and the laundry sink drain lower as that drain is too high for a standard plastic laundry tub, but I opted to stay put and want to address it another way if the sink is too high.

So what he did was he widened the trench, took out where the 3" CI line and the old lav CI line to the right and toss that entire loopy interchange out and reworked everything with PVC. So the fernco coupling that was left there on top of the PVC was from previous work.

I can't tell if the toilet is venting or not. Here the code calls for 5 feet to the vent, so I am sure the distance from the toilet around that loop to the lav vent is more than 5', or to the 3" vent is more than 5 feet. Is it wet venting properly?

He added a cleanout to the lav, but not the front but to the back of it through the wall to the garage side:



same here with the 3" line he added a cleanout to the other side:



I am not a plumber, but looking at Packy's post above with that image, I think this is what he did?



Is that right? Don't laugh I am just trying to sketch out the schematic pattern here.



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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: packy (MA)

suffice to say that mass codes are more restrictive that the rest of the known world. your job would not pass code here.
one more criticism. get a real cleanout plug. one with a square nut to get a wrench onto. your chances of getting that thing open in a few years are about as good as curt schilling ever pitching again.
plug looks like this...

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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: sum (FL)

Packy thanks I thought the same thing about the cleanout plug, it was a bit "behind the wall" so I need to actually extend it so it would protrude from the wall.

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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: sum (FL)

Quote

Don't forget to wrap the toilet pipe before you pour the floor back, that way you can slip a flange down over the outside of the pipe.

Thanks NC Plumber. So I need a 12x12 box around shower, a thin wrap around toilet for flange insertion, wrap copper pipes in sleeves...taking notes.

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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: joint-runner (MA)

I don't Care what State your in...That Shower is not vented.Sum your batting a thousand with Bad Plumbers my Freind.

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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: lip123 (NJ)

Reason for a test tee? I dont think you plan on snaking your vent out. Should of been a WYE in the line with a real clean out plug. Why does the shower line jump over the 3inch line and over to the 2 inch line? I see he has it vented to the sink line that is vented straight up but the vent on the 3inch line is closer. The toilet flange should be on. You should cement the ancers (spelling) in. So when you tighten the screws into the top of the flange they bite into the ancers. Also noticed the primer issue. I hope its clear. Oh and the pipe isnt sch 40 its the coex foam core stuff.



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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: birddoggiest (ID)

The wet vented section needs to be one pipe size larger than the drain being served. A shower drain being 2" needs the WYE and toilet vent to be 3", then you can reduce to 2" after the shower. The shower WYE also needs to be in the vertical position (45* or more)

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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: LemonPlumber (FL)

sum it looks like he got the dwv to a good point .i like fernco couplings,the bands on the no hub band indicate that the rubber sleeve inside the band will have wrinled on the smaller pvc side. and they are now the only code option for change of pipe types accepted by southern code.the ferncos i mean or comparable rated.what happened to need hard copper.that is what that tee under the slab??looks like.where is the protective sleeving on this????and the other new copper at or below the slab.i don't want to pick any work to death. so good luck.

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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: SwimRunPlumb (MI)

Packy, I wouldn't be so fast to denote people to putting fittings away at the shop just because it isn't the way you HAVE to do it or the way you LIKE to do it.

That wet vented bathroom group is about as common as anything here in Michigan. The shower MUST be on the same plain (plane?) as the vent to be wet vented. If it is rolled up you have to jump up one pipe size. But that is Michigan. I don't see much of a choice on the banana lav since the shower must be within 6' of the vent.

I think anybody that doesn't think this will work just fine should be obsessing over somethig else, like trying to find the last digit of pi.

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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: dlh (TX)

i would have ran the shower and lav different but it would have been the same thing just not so many fittings

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PLUMBERS "Protecting The Health Of The Nation"

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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: kaw (CA)

I would have tied the shower into the 3" horizontal coming from the washing machine,with a 3x3x2" wye and tried to run a seperate vent for the shower.They could have wet vented the toilet on the right side instead of going around the toilet to the left.That would have used less fittings and shortend the sink toilet wet vent.Which may have let it not be flat vented.The fall on the wet vent looks flat in this picture.

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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: joint-runner (MA)

SwimRunPlumb,A wet vent must be Pulled Between the two fixtures in is serving thus a tee-wye rolled to a 45 degree angle..that branch will run to the lav..then to the shower with the top inlet...only now will the shower and toilet be vented via the lav.



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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: scottdenny (CA)

UPC 2000-piping would not pass. No horizontal wet venting.
UPC 2006-piping would not pass. Section L6.2.1 (6) The horizontal branch drain serving the lavatory and shower shall connect to the horizontal water closet branch above its centerline.

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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: packy (MA)

be nice now guys. we can all disagree or we can all agree or we can split right down the middle 60/40. maybe if we had a national code then we can argue about whether something is vented right or not. but our codes vary so we are all right. or maybe we are all wrong.
in any case, spring training starts in a few days and i gotta listen to them being called the world champion red sox. i'm depressed...

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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: SwimRunPlumb (MI)

.



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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: hj (AZ)

Depends on what you call a thin wrap for the closet bend riser.

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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: sum (FL)

Quote

Sum your batting a thousand with Bad Plumbers my Freind.

Joint-runner I wish I am only batting a thousand but I have batted many thousands on this drain relocation.

I am so confused I am going to stick my head inside a corroded pipe.

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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: noleaks123 (WA)

The new work would have multiple UPC code and "inspectors opinion" violations if it were here in the Seattle/Eastside area. Including venting, trap arm fittings, hydronic testing tee, glue/primer use and the correct mechanical transition coupling to the cast iron (they should have found the hub and connected into that). Connecting into the the hub would help to get the pipe deep enough to roll the vents vertically through the walls to at least 6" above flood rim of the highest fixture in the room. That was no licenced plumber who did that work (I hope).

If I came to that job I would cut it all out and start over. But I am used to the inspectors around here and know they can be a bit hard to deal with.

It will probably work though but just not good craftsmanship. You should at least find a way to check for leaks. Just get it covered and move on.

Regards from the other side of the states.

I need to get to work now. That phone is ringing.



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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: joint-runner (MA)

sorry swim,I guess if his code will let it fly he's good to go.

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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: hj (AZ)

One question would be where are you finding these plumbers? In the "home services" section of the paper's want ads where all the unlicensed contractors advertise?

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 LemonPlumber
Author: e-plumber (NY)

I've been waiting for a Florida Plumber to chime in...
I see that you have relocated from New Mexico. Are you licensed in FL?
If an inspector walked in, would that work pass?

e-plumber
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The society which scorns excellence in Plumbing as a humble activity and tolerates shoddiness in philosophy because it is an
exalted activity will have neither good Plumbing nor good philosophy: neither its pipes nor its theories will hold water." -
John William Gardner 10/8/1912 - 2/16/2002

Repair your leaking Plumbing fixtures ASAP [www.theplumber.com]
This slow drip will waste 7+ gallons of water per day.

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 noleaks123
Author: packy (MA)

excellent post. you have your head screwed on correctly. (that's a compliment)

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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: hj (AZ)

PVC is slightly larger than cast iron, but that ho-hub transiton piece makes them the same size. It sounds like the Southern Code doesn't know that they make transition couplings to join various materials, and the Ferco is not the best choice for doing so. And the only way to use hard copper under a slab is to have fittings to change direction. No GOOD code allows solder joints under a slab, except for very, very, special conditions, and then they have to be brazed/silver soldered.

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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: Sport45 (TX)

Quote
sum
Now that the trench is widened to almost 4 feet, I think it will need some sort of rebar reinforcement.

Not plumbing related, but I'd be more concerned that the original pour doesn't seem to be reinforced.

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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: sum (FL)

The original slab was reinforced, there were lots of wire mesh we ripped out.

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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: sum (FL)

hj this plumber came highly recommended and is actually a retired inspector himself. The last one who did the original work was a large plumbing contractor with the biggest ads.

I measure each section of the pipe they are all sloping downwards. Someone mentioned "horizontal" wet venting so I figured I mentioned this.

I am still not sure what to make of this, I am sure this will pass inspection, but that does not mean it will work. If the shower is not vented then I am not sure what to do now...

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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: dlh (TX)

sum, rest assured that this will pass inspection and work just fine no matter what a couple of these guys say. they are under a different code than you are and really have no clue what will and wont pass in your area.

in fact under the upc if they rolled the vent up a bit further like suggested this would pass that code also.

i seen that kaw mentioned tieing the shower into the line that serves the washer and laundry tub. i wouldnt listen to much what that person says since that would be illegal by both the upc and ipc codes unless you vented it separately from the washers vent

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PLUMBERS "Protecting The Health Of The Nation"



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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: hj (AZ)

If the fill is compacted properly it does not need rebar, and few residential slabs are reinforced. If a commercial slab is reinforced, and even then there are few of them, it is usually just with wire mesh.

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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: hj (AZ)

When I was an apprentice, I had an active plumbing inspector working under me, and I had to fire him because of shoddy workmanship, so that is not always a valid recommendation.

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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: sum (FL)

LemonPlumber the supply T you saw was done by the first plumber I hired. The manifold you saw in the first picture, that picture was taken before the first plumber moved it to the future location of a new wall next to it. Originally there were no joints under the slab, the copper were all "bent" to the angles desired. After the first plumber did it there are now many solder joints.

Original manifold:


Relocated manifold:


I asked the first plumber about this and he said they do this all the time. The second plumber says the same. A few here mentioned brazened joints I asked them about it and they looked at me like I am from Mars. I am concerned about this too as there is no soldered joints in the original copper manifold below grade.

I think I will ask him to change the cleanout T, it should not be a 90 degree T but should be a "sweeping Y" instead with a real plug.

I will ask him about the primer too, it is strange that on the lav cleanout there is purple primer so why there isn't on the others I don't understand unless he ran out and used clear.

I remember when he did the job, I asked him why he did the loop back from the lav instead of just tieing into the 3" laundry line, he said the laundry line vent cannot be shared by others by code.

I guess I need to test the system for leakage. Can I cut the PVC pipe at the top for shower and toilet and push a garden hose down and turn on water and test the siphoning and leakage. I guess I cannot test the toilet there is no way I can put 1.6 gallons down in one shot except may be using a bucket?

Someone mentioned that the closet flange needs to be on right now, I don't understand. I thought you finish the top then you install the flange to rest on top of the floor, as long as you leave a small sliver of room around the rim you can fit a flange over in?

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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: hj (AZ)

Those solder joints under the floor are improper and any inspector should reject them. Under floor they either have to be brazed/silver soldered, or flared. The expansion/contraction stesses can pull a solder joint apart. Some inspectors want the flange during the first inspection phase. When they do, I just push the flange on without gluing it.

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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: sum (FL)

Would it be better or worse if I replace the metal joints with Sharknites fittings? But those are temp fittings right?

I cannot find any plumbers that knows what Brazening is in south Florida, let alone doing it.

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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: dlh (TX)

i agree with hj, those solder joints should not pass any inspection.

as for the flange i have had 1 inspector require it to be on during the rough inspection but there was no way to out it on without gluing it or it would have leaked and i would have failed the inspection so how hj got it to pass under pressure i would love to know.

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PLUMBERS "Protecting The Health Of The Nation"

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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: birddoggiest (ID)

If you get some silver solder you can braze over those existing solder joints with a MAP torch. It is done all the time.

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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: dlh (TX)

no it isnt. the only thing you will be doing is putting a bead of silver solder on the outside which doesnt do crap

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PLUMBERS "Protecting The Health Of The Nation"

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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: hj (AZ)

They are not listed as temporary fittings, and any plumber who does not know how to braze/silfos/silver solder is not really a plumber.

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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: hj (AZ)

I use the external flanges that slide over the pipe/closet bend, and since the test plug is on the pipe, there is no pressure on the flange joint.

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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: hj (AZ)

It is done all the time? The next time I see it done, or even hear of anyone doing it it will be the first time. Unless the heat burns the solder off and does not leave a residue, the silver solder will not adhere to the copper properly.

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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: sum (FL)

First of all I want to thank everyone who responded to this thread. I learned a lot from just reading everyone's responses, it's truly appreciated. I am amazed that this thread grew this long with so much contribution.

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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: sum (FL)

Quote

any plumber who does not know how to braze/silfos/silver solder is not really a plumber.

hj I could not even find anyone who heard of the term "braze" down here. I will call around Monday and see.

Well, at least my electrical part of the project is working out fine.

As I say, if anyone is taking a winter vacation in sunny Miami and wants to do some brazening for one afternoon give me a ring a ding. I will set you up with a magarita on a beach chair next to the excavated trench.



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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: dlh (TX)

many different codes across the country sum.

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 Re: Plumbing work redo completed - improved?
Author: dlh (TX)

then you havent talked to a real plumber yet. from the east coast to the west we have all heard of and done some brazing/silver solder/silfos.

in fact we have to do it when we take our journeyman's test

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PLUMBERS "Protecting The Health Of The Nation"



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 brazing copper
Author: packy (MA)

no one knows how to braze? how do they join copper tubing for air conditioning? (freon)
the plumbers soft solder underground all the time?
it was i who suggested these plumbers put fittings up on shelves rather than work in the field. someone criticized me for that comment. i now repeat, anyone who soft solders underground and then tells the customer it is done all the time should be putting fittings on shelves. this is not only wrong, it is dishonest to tell you it is correct procedure.
if your state has a plumbing board, contact them and ask about acceptable methods of joining copper underground.

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 Re: brazing copper
Author: dlh (TX)

more specifically under a concrete slab as just being underground means you can soft solder as long as it is not under concrete (here at least)

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PLUMBERS "Protecting The Health Of The Nation"

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 Re: brazing copper
Author: sum (FL)

Packy I will try the second plumber again tomorrow and see if he understands. He and I have a bit of language barrier he speaks mostly Spanish. I checked in the dictionary "braze" is "suelde" see if he understands me.

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 Re: brazing copper
Author: e-plumber (NY)

Here, Type K copper with flared joints for most underground work.



e-plumber
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The society which scorns excellence in Plumbing as a humble activity and tolerates shoddiness in philosophy because it is an
exalted activity will have neither good Plumbing nor good philosophy: neither its pipes nor its theories will hold water." -
John William Gardner 10/8/1912 - 2/16/2002

Repair your leaking Plumbing fixtures ASAP [www.theplumber.com]
This slow drip will waste 7+ gallons of water per day.

Reply To This Message

 Re: brazing copper
Author: lip123 (NJ)

Where im from soder joints under ground are illegal. When we run water mains in k copper we have to use flare joints like shown above. But like mentioned in the last few post, the code changes from every state.

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 Re: brazing copper
Author: birddoggiest (ID)

Sil-Fos rep approved and it passed engineering to repair soldering leaks in a new 6" water main at a hospital in Spokane Wa.

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 Re: brazing copper
Author: dlh (TX)

how they got the sil-fos to take with solder in the joint is a mystery to me. everything i have heard and read and been trained about soldering and brazing says it wont work. like i said it is nothing more than a cap if that

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PLUMBERS "Protecting The Health Of The Nation"

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 Re: brazing copper
Author: birddoggiest (ID)

It takes it, try it some time. It looks awful when your done. It pushes the solder out. The mechanical contractor gave a 20 year written gaurantee.

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 Re: brazing copper
Author: dlh (TX)

pushes it out or into the pipe? i bet it goes into the pipe if it actually does what you claim but how the sil-fos gets in the joint is the puzzler since it is incompatible with flux and solder not to mention burning the solder by heating the pipe to cherry red. it just goes against everything i have been taught and told by experts in the copper field.

if it pushes the solder into the pipe then you are going to have other problems sooner or later but you will have them from the restriction in the line

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PLUMBERS "Protecting The Health Of The Nation"



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 Re: brazing copper
Author: hj (AZ)

The discussion was relevent to this particular installation which is under a slab.

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 Re: brazing copper
Author: A1APLBG (GA)

1/2 of all houses in florida with copper pipes have L or M hard copper with soft joints under the slab. And as the venting goes, the wye catching the shower should have been a 3x2 instead of a 2. florida code would allow the use of a double wye, or two wyes butted toghter as long as the wye closest to the water-closet was the vent. Your job will pass inspection if the inspector will let him slide on the water test. We here in FL call it silver soldering.

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 Re: brazing copper
Author: dlh (TX)

you guys must still be under the southern code or something silly like that. i know neither the ipc or upc allows soft solder under a concrete slab

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PLUMBERS "Protecting The Health Of The Nation"

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 Re: brazing copper
Author: A1APLBG (GA)

where does the ipc say that?

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 Re: brazing copper
Author: hj (AZ)

1/2 of all houses in florida with copper pipes have L or M hard copper with soft joints under the slab.

And why would they have those? All good plumbers loop their copper lines from point to point and come up in a wall to make their connections. Are you saying that more than half the plumbers in Florida are incompetent?

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 Re: brazing copper
Author: hj (AZ)

Because it's the IPC, it might not, but it should.

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 Re: brazing copper
Author: dlh (TX)

oops ya got me it looks like. i guess it is a local thing

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PLUMBERS "Protecting The Health Of The Nation"

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 Re: brazing copper
Author: sum (FL)

All I know is this. The original manifold had no fitting under the slab. The copper pipes were bent into the shape they need to be in to go where they need to go. The first plumber when relocating the manifold ended up adding lots of fittings for it to work. Not only where there are 90 degree elbows, but also along using couplers to butt join two pipes, not sure why may be because instead of using an 18" pipe he had a 14" stretch and a 4" stretch laying around. The second plumber never touched the copper pipes he just redid the drains.



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 Transition from PVC to cast iron
Author: sum (FL)

One other issue that I need some help on is the transition from PVC to cast iron:



To quote LemonPlumber:

Quote

the bands on the no hub band indicate that the rubber sleeve inside the band will have wrinled on the smaller pvc side. and they are now the only code option for change of pipe types accepted by southern code.the ferncos i mean or comparable rated.

or hj:
Quote

doesn't know that they make transition couplings to join various materials

So there is an issue with that transition using a no-hub coupling? should I go back to using a fernco coupling or should I go hunt for the specific transition coupling hj talked about to join PVC to CI?

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 Re: Transition from PVC to cast iron
Author: dlh (TX)

here is what you need

[www.fernco.com]

with this you should not need that reducing piece or what ever it is on the plastic

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PLUMBERS "Protecting The Health Of The Nation"

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 Re: Transition from PVC to cast iron
Author: SwimRunPlumb (MI)

The piece on the pvc is a no-hub adapter and is required in many areas. It has a raised lip on the end of it which prevents the fernco from pulling off (not that it would in this case though).

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 Re: brazing copper
Author: birddoggiest (ID)

The solder gets pushed out of the joint, as for the flux or other contaminates the are completely burned out by the time the joint is ready for Sil-Fos.

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 Re: brazing copper
Author: dlh (TX)

which way is the solder pushed? into or out of the pipe? never seen it get pushed before and i have tried the sil-fos over solder once, before i knew why it didnt work.

if you are pushing it into the pipe then you are wrong as wrong can be for doing it!

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PLUMBERS "Protecting The Health Of The Nation"

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 Re: brazing copper
Author: birddoggiest (ID)

It pushes it out of the pipe, and the engineers are who say it is acceptable not me, It just know it worked fine.

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 Re: brazing copper
Author: dlh (TX)

if it goes out of the pipe then that means the heat is pulling the solder imo. i just dont see how it is any better than a patch because i am sure that none went into the fitting. i have had to correct more than one engineer. they dont know everything and in fact many know close to nothing

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PLUMBERS "Protecting The Health Of The Nation"



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 Re: brazing copper
Author: birddoggiest (ID)

I'll let them know that you know and they don't including the manufacturer that will warranty it, city and private engineers that approved it, dlh(tx) said it won't work. It has been fine for three years now, and that isn't a long time but I will let you know if it fails.



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