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Author:
MattWebb502 (KY)
Damned previous owners.
I had a wobbly/leaky toilet, found it to be that they had installed the flange on top of the tile floor rather than flush with it... so that took some time to fix.
Now it appears the bowl will not hold water, seems to be siphoning itself empty after a flush.
It flushes well, no gurgling from the sink or shower drains, seems fine... just won't hold water in the bowl
What would cause this?
I have my suspicions...
whoever installed this toilet had to tap into a CI drain stack, and the end result is about a 3' run of 4" PVC from the toilet location to the stack... but it has to run uphill slightly in order to reach the tee in the CI.
Now with my flange installed correctly the drain sits about 1/2" lower than it did before, making the uphill incline that much worse.
Is this the cause?
Suck part of this is that it's a very tight crawl space... I've done my fair share of old construction crawl space work over 9 or so years pulling wires for a living... this is the worst I've faced.
So, while I like to do things right, I'm looking for alternative solutions to this one.
@#$%& PO's could have done things RIGHT when they had the floors and walls gutted.
Someone please make my day and tell me I'm not screwed here.
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Author:
packy (MA)
the flange was installed correctly if it sat on top of the tile floor. your problem appears to be the pitch of the drain pipe.
a partial stoppage will also do this. you need a free flow of air throughout the drainage system. if this can not occur, water running thru the pipes starts sucking for air from anyplace it can find it. your toilet might be that place.
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Author:
MattWebb502 (KY)
with the flange on top of the floor the toilet seemed to be resting on the flange... it would never sit on the floor. In fact, after spending much time with it and trying to get it to seat flush with the floor the old flange cracked after applying a little too much torque to the studs.
Alright, well, I'll redo it. Shouldn't be too hard to do. Are those flange spacer with the gasket junk or acceptable to use?
As for the vent situation, I am 99% sure the CI this ties into has a 4" CI vent going straight to the roof.
So maybe the pitch is the problem.. but I really don't want it to be.
Good thing is I have access to the CI going up the walls ... so I can brace it nice and well to keep it from falling if I do need to cut out the crawl space section of it.
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Author:
packy (MA)
you weren't using one of those wax rings with a plastic insert were you? sometimes those plastic pieces get in the way and give the appearence that the toilet is hitting the flange. if you turn a toilet bowl upsidedown and hold a flat stick across it, there is at least 3/4" space for the flange to fit into.
just because the toilet ties into a 4" cast iron pipe that eventually goes thru the roof, doesn,t mean it is vented properly. if another toilet also drains into that 4" cast iron pipe, then when it flushes, it could cause the problem with the first toilet. it all has to do with a free flow of air in the drainage system. this is why every trap must have a vent. i'm not saying that the world as we know it will end just because a toilet isn't vented. each piping arrangement is different and sometimes unvented fixtures work for years and years with no adverse effects but other times problems occur.
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Author:
dlh (TX)
well since the toilet was working in this spot before you messed with the flang then i would say that something you did is causing it to suck the water or there is a restriction in the line.
you might want to have a local plumber come and diagnose it
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Author:
MattWebb502 (KY)
here's the story.
that 4" vent that it's tied into is apparantly no longer a vent. I got up above the drop ceiling and bashed the old plaster out... I found that the kitchen sink above it is plumbed into it.... now, there is a vent for that sink, but it's further upstream, not at that joint. So, the PO's strike once again.
As far as it acting different now than it did before, I've gone over and over the situation... getting in that crawl space is a PITA and is starting to wear on me!
Anyways, the best I can figure is that the wax seal was leaky enough before that the leak itself was acting as the vent. There's just simply nothing else to explain the situ that I can think of.... unless birds came a built a nest in the upstairs kitchen vent while I was replacing the flange and seal?
Really, I know I'm not a pro, but I'm no half ass either. I truly believe I have an idea of what's wrong here.
I can't come up with something I have done wrong that would cause this 'new' problem... Now I'm looking into gutting the wall in the bathroom to correct what the PO's had done wrong. Something I don't want to do, but from what I can tell is going to be necessary.
Someone PLEASE tell me I'm wrong ... PLEASE!
Hiring a pro at this point is, sorry, just not an option. I lost my job and cash is tight. Whatever the result, I will see to it that it's done right though. Afterall, I have the time.........
thanks all, keep 'em coming!
- Matt
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Author:
steve (CA)
The bowl will only siphon out, until an air passage is uncovered between the water in the bowl and the trapway of the toilet. If the bowl siphons dry or close to it, there is a crack in the bowl and the water is seeping out.
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Author:
MattWebb502 (KY)
yeah that's what I've been trying to figure.
Even if there is no vent for the toilet drain, it seems that bowl will siphon out (as it is designed to do) until it reaches the level where air can flow freely from bowl area to drain.... then the pressures should reach an equilibrium and the bowl should continue to fill back up no problems. It's hard to make sense of what is happening and why.
I do not believe the bowl to be cracked, as I got fairly intimate with it (cleaning, inspecting, etc).
Again all, I freely admit I'm no pro... experience on my part is limited to what work I've done and learned so far... certainly don't have years of exp. under my belt as you all do... so please, correct me where I'm wrong --- one thing that I've always been REALLY into is learning... so I'm here to learn, tell me where my thinking is wrong!
thanks again all,
Matt
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Author:
steve (CA)
How fast does the bowl drain down? Unbolt the toilet from the flange and space it up an inch or so above the floor. Fill the bowl to normal water depth and see if the level drops.
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Author:
MattWebb502 (KY)
drains about as fast as a normal operating toilet would...
if you're asking if the bowl will hold water at all the answer is yes... I had it full for a minute yesterday.
thanks AGAIN all,
Matt
Edited 1 times.
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Author:
steve (CA)
????
When you flush the toilet, does all or almost all of the water evacuate from the bowl and the bowl doesn't refill? Or does the bowl refill and then given a period of time, lose water from what was there after the flush?
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Author:
MattWebb502 (KY)
it does not refill. Attempts to, but burps as water enters the bowl. Never refills unless I give it some time and do it manually.
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Author:
MattWebb502 (KY)
fixed... back to the original condition, which still isn't correct.
Got on the roof, found a little debris in the vent... shop vac'd it out.
No change in toilet behavior.
Pulled the toilet, seal looked perfectly set.
raised the flange back to an appropriate height, which also raised the drain line back to it's original grade.
Slapped a new seal on, bolted it down, and the toilet works.
It gurgles for a second after the flush but then sure enough the bowl fills up.
I still think the vent situ is less than ideal... but atleast at this point it's working.
thanks all.
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