What is the best type of copper pipe to use when installing in a new home? L or M, whats the difference, thickness? thanks

m copper is much easier to use the od is different also, in michigan most plumbers use m copper for standard use and k is required for underground. hope this helps ps. m copper is usally cheaper here.

As for as what is the best copper to use the answer would be type "K". The most common that is used is type"L". Type "M" is not allowed in my area but most home improvement stores sell it and it is used often by the "DIY'r" . The thickness of the wall is what makes each pipe different from the other. The outside diameter is the same on each. Type "M" is allowed for drainage but not for water. GOOD LUCK

K,L, and M all have the same od, but there is a fractional distance on the id.



L is what I would recommend. M sometimes seems so thin and even though it is easy to cut, it would just be a better investment with the L type copper.

In my opinions, forget the M. It is just too thin walled.

Also in my opinion copper is for homes of the past and there is no good reason to use it in new homes. Look at the posts here for frozen, burst, leaking, pin-holed pipes and the trouble most Diy'ers have repairing it.

PEXa or CPVC would be my choices now.

There is the argument that many have that they have done it this way for 30 years and nobody can tell them any different. That's all fine and dandy but I use a cell phone, or home phone, not a telegraph, a computer, not a typwriter, and tools that use rechargable batteries.

Times change and better products come along. Time weeds out the fads and bad ideas. (Like the Edsel, the Hindenburg and Quest)

The o.d. is the same otherwise the fittings would not work. The i.d. is different due to the thinner wall.

"M" is used here in residential systems most of the time. DWV is used for drains but not for water.

And polybutylene tubing which was used by plumbers for the same reasons you now recommend PEX.

Quest was pb.

Times change and better products come along.


Hrmmmm....



Everyone jumped that bandwagon when it came to PB and Quest, and you now see the class action lawsuits that follow.


Now I speak for the majority of Kentucky, Ohio, and Indiana, and I imagine that 85% of them are supplied by copper water lines. Copper sales to new home construction can prove this fact that it is an everyday occurrence of this installation. The success rate of this material is high including 50+year lifespan.

That blows your theory of piping just for old homes right out of the water.


As with any piping system, put in unusual situations, it will fail, as with anything man made.


Even plumbing supply.com has an article regarding why they will not sell this product, and I personally support them in thier beliefs.


[www.plumbingsupply.com]


Look at how many people became victim to the newest thing on the market, only to find out that ease of install and cheap = you get what you deserve plumbing....junk.


I don't ever recall copper piping having a mass recall in regards to millions of feet of piping being mass produced without determining the long term effects.




I am starting to wonder what bandwagon us "professionals" are expected to jump on next.

Maybe because it's quick and easy? Like production homes? Put the cheapest, inexpensive products in so that the homeowner feels the pain?

Do you really expect the homeowner someday to have to go and purchase a $200 crimping tool just to fix a leaking water line in thier home, or have them stuck in a jam that they have to rely on someone who has one?


Sorry, I won't follow this path. I respect my profession and my customers too much to save a dollar now to end up losing a good reputation down the road.


What kills me is the gripes about this topic always lead these plastic pipes connecting to brass bodied fixtures, intermixed with copper supplies at times, and some states even require hard piping 18" out of the tops of water heaters because the long term effects of high water temperature on plastic piping.


If your Ph levels are so high or so low that it can disentegrate the copper, then why are acid neutralizers not being introduced? When you have cancer, do you just throw another pair of clothes on and the cancer is gone?



It's not the same for all areas, but until plastic body faucets become a big hit in Delta, Moen, and Kohler faucets, I will believe the "new wave" and deal with its problems then.


Plastic piping has many uses, other than plumbing. If given the proper situation, and not exposed to UV rays and the consistent temperature variances that change the physical properties over time, no exposure to chemicals or detergents, oils, gasoline, and other chemicals not safe for human life, it works pretty good. Works great in the medical field, but most of its uses are normall short term, and provide a terrific reliability in this fashion.

It has an edge on cost when doing an underground service, but what we all know is, plastic breaks over time by being brittle, hardened. Cold temperatures makes it extremely rigid, and extreme heat makes it very pliable or bendable. These physical changes of the properties of this material can be problematic and dangerous if the situation presents itself.


To throw another example out, take DWV plastic piping.


Anyone knows that in a remodel situation that has to remove old PVC piping, the piping shatters like glass when trying to remove or add on to the piping when working with it. It is brittle, and very hard to cut without the pipe shattering. It is not designed to be pressurized, therefore its properties were never designed to do such task. Just another example of how this product has its limitations.


And I don't remember a copper pipe going bad for no unknown reason, and if it did, I would blame the installer for shoddy solder joints, which has no bearing on the product, but the installer that doesn't know thier profession.

Don't ever remember a plastic pipe or fitting having a value at the scrap yard once the product is removed from the home.

Don't ever remember a copper pipe catching fire in a home causing toxic fumes.


Don't ever recall a copper water line buried in the ground being contaminated by a simple spill of gas, oil, fertilizer chemicals, diesel fuel, human excremate and urine caused by a malfunctioning or broken sewer line or septic tank.


Don't ever recall a solder joint that is a removable joint once its put together. Unlike the unconventional crimp, compression, barb and clamp type.


And I have never in my life ever heard of a female adapter in copper ever crack due to simple tightening.




And if the biggest plumbing supply on the net won't supply it and certain states will not allow its use, or sell it in big box stores, I think the majority in this case speaks for itself.......

Durable goods means just what it says....Durable.



Post Edited

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Everything in Plumbing can be repaired or replaced.

Yikes Dunbar...down boy down!

PEX has been around since the 60's. It Ain't new


db:
Now I speak for the majority of Kentucky, Ohio, and Indiana, and I imagine that 85% of them are supplied by copper water lines. Copper sales to new home construction can prove this fact that it is an everyday occurrence of this installation. The success rate of this material is high including 50+year lifespan.

That blows your theory of piping just for old homes right out of the water.

sgp:
Arround here and in other parts of the nation that is simply reversed.

DB:
As with any piping system, put in unusual situations, it will fail, as with anything man made.

SGP:

Yep, can't argue that a bit.

DB:
Even plumbing supply.com has an article regarding why they will not sell this product, and I personally support them in thier beliefs.


[www.plumbingsupply.com]

SGP:
They have their opinion and they are entitled to it.

DB:
Look at how many people became victim to the newest thing on the market, only to find out that ease of install and cheap = you get what you deserve plumbing....junk.

SGP: again, Pex has been around since the 60's It ain't new.


DB:
I don't ever recall copper piping having a mass recall in regards to millions of feet of piping being mass produced without determining the long term effects.

SGP: Pex Either, what a coinicedence

DB:
I am starting to wonder what bandwagon us "professionals" are expected to jump on next.

Maybe because it's quick and easy? Like production homes? Put the cheapest, inexpensive products in so that the homeowner feels the pain?

Do you really expect the homeowner someday to have to go and purchase a $200 crimping tool just to fix a leaking water line in thier home, or have them stuck in a jam that they have to rely on someone who has one?


Sorry, I won't follow this path. I respect my profession and my customers too much to save a dollar now to end up losing a good reputation down the road.


What kills me is the gripes about this topic always lead these plastic pipes connecting to brass bodied fixtures, intermixed with copper supplies at times, and some states even require hard piping 18" out of the tops of water heaters because the long term effects of high water temperature on plastic piping.


If your Ph levels are so high or so low that it can disentegrate the copper, then why are acid neutralizers not being introduced? When you have cancer, do you just throw another pair of clothes on and the cancer is gone?



It's not the same for all areas, but until plastic body faucets become a big hit in Delta, Moen, and Kohler faucets, I will believe the "new wave" and deal with its problems then.


Plastic piping has many uses, other than plumbing. If given the proper situation, and not exposed to UV rays and the consistent temperature variances that change the physical properties over time, no exposure to chemicals or detergents, oils, gasoline, and other chemicals not safe for human life, it works pretty good. Works great in the medical field, but most of its uses are normall short term, and provide a terrific reliability in this fashion.

It has an edge on cost when doing an underground service, but what we all know is, plastic breaks over time by being brittle, hardened. Cold temperatures makes it extremely rigid, and extreme heat makes it very pliable or bendable. These physical changes of the properties of this material can be problematic and dangerous if the situation presents itself.


To throw another example out, take DWV plastic piping.


Anyone knows that in a remodel situation that has to remove old PVC piping, the piping shatters like glass when trying to remove or add on to the piping when working with it. It is brittle, and very hard to cut without the pipe shattering. It is not designed to be pressurized, therefore its properties were never designed to do such task. Just another example of how this product has its limitations.

SGP: never seen pvc do this. Must be something in the air out there I would have put something in sooner but the rant was long and it's been a tough day.

DB:
And I don't remember a copper pipe going bad for no unknown reason, and if it did, I would blame the installer for shoddy solder joints, which has no bearing on the product, but the installer that doesn't know thier profession.

Don't ever remember a plastic pipe or fitting having a value at the scrap yard once the product is removed from the home.
SGP: I don't build homes for their scrap value.

DB:
Don't ever remember a copper pipe catching fire in a home causing toxic fumes.

SGP:
By the time the water lines catch you have been dead.

DB:
Don't ever recall a copper water line buried in the ground being contaminated by a simple spill of gas, oil, fertilizer chemicals, diesel fuel, human excremate and urine caused by a malfunctioning or broken sewer line or septic tank.

SGP: Me either

DB:
Don't ever recall a solder joint that is a removable joint once its put together. Unlike the unconventional crimp, compression, barb and clamp type.


And I have never in my life ever heard of a female adapter in copper ever crack due to simple tightening.

SGP: ok, so, I don't see those points as really mattering. Just my opinion.

DB:
And if the biggest plumbing supply on the net won't supply it and certain states will not allow its use, or sell it in big box stores, I think the majority in this case speaks for itself.......

SGP: Yeah, they have an opinion or it has yet to be approved.

DB:
Durable goods means just what it says....Durable.


SGP:
Again...60's! DB this has been fun...kinda, but take it easy. I do not think that we are in danger from this product. If it prooves out otherwise after 40+ years it will be a first. The PB product failures were known soon after and kept quiet until it was too big. Still it only took a few years.

Sounds like you had a day like mine.

Really that depends on the quality of the water you plan on running through copper. The more acidc, use K everywhere; it will take the longest to have the water eat holes in it. It migh last like 8-10 years with a pH of say 5.5. Next would be L and last would be M. But if you dont' have a water quality problem, then there's electrical and dissimilar metals corrosion and errosion corrosion problems from high TDS and chlorides. Which are water quality related, that can wear holes in copper fittings. Hot water recirc systems spring leaks daily due to those causes.

Read up on all the replumb jobs done due to copper and leaks regardless of the cause, then make up your own mind.

I say the best material depends on your water quality, and if those suggesting this'n that copper haven't mentioned that, beware. And shame on them.

Gary
Quality Water Associates

PVC water lines in a house should not be a problem in case of a fire since PVC is not allowed indoors for plumbing. But PVC waste and vent lines are a toxic problem, which is why they are not allowed in high rise buildings. But one question, well two really. When you install PEX instead of copper, do you adjust your price to reflect the savings, and if so, is the price of the home to the buyer also reduced, or does someone just make a higher profit by using it?

type "L" is the only grade of pipe that should ever be used on a residential home......if the copper is cleaned, fluxed, soldered, cleaned after soldering with water and a clean rag and bored out with the proper reaming after cuts are made to avoid pinholes at fittings due to turbulance type "L" copper will last a lifetime

I guess you have not checked out any of the projects around the area. If they are not using PEX or CPVC, most are using "M". But then few projects use union plumbers these days. And I have been using "M" above ground since I came to PHX, (even while in a 469 union shop), and have never had a call back because of it.

Until recent (past few years) code changes here, Type M copper was only used for heating lines. It was always Type L for domestic water lines.
Type M is used for drain lines for some commercial installations; diners, restaurants, etc.

e-plumber



e-plumber
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"The society which scorns excellence in Plumbing as a humble activity and tolerates shoddiness in philosophy because it is an
exalted activity will have neither good Plumbing nor good philosophy: neither its pipes nor its theories will hold water." -
John William Gardner 10/8/1912 - 2/16/2002

Repair your leaking Plumbing fixtures ASAP [www.theplumber.com]
This slow drip will waste 7+ gallons of water per day.

I've been in this business for over 30 years.

Have installed type K for many years because I only worked in commercial work (union) in Los Angeles during my earliest plumbing years (union apprentice and so on).

When working for myself I installed type L for a number of years because I thought that would be best. That came from the brainwashing that I recived when training.

Later I recognized something very important:

IF type M isn't good enough, then we have a major problem because if all is ideal, type M will last longer than the house will. There is no need to go thicker.

If piping thicker than type M is needed (code issues aside, that's another issue) then there is a problem.

IF type M leaks over time that means one of these issues:

a) Piping was underside and eroded. If that is the case then type L or K will actually erode slightly faster (although a wider safety margin) because L and K are smaller inside and the speed of the water will be faster which causes even faster erosion.

In any event I would hope that the customer would not drink that water as hgh copper content is toxic.

b) Defective pipe which means if defective the thickness might be somewhat of a safety factor but that's not a reason to go with thicker pipe.

c) Aggressive water which ate the pipe. Could be from acidic water, mproper grounding and a number of other factors.

Just as in reason (a), if that is the reason, I hope the customer isn't drinking that toxic water. When the copper pipe is degrading that excess copper is in the water.

After many years, I have come to the conclusion that either type M is good enough or I shouldn't be using copper pipe at all.

I understand when some plumbers will state that plumbers who install type M aren't worth much and that's because I used to be one of the plumbers that used to feel that way.

It was due to the brainwashing that I recieved when I was an apprentice.

Quality type M is fine above ground.

Not code everywhere though and so be sure to check with your local building officials.

Just my 2 cent$ worth.

Jim

I would normally use L as water piping, It truly depends on the water quality in your area, I have used both L and M without problems.

Plumbermandan

DB:
Don't ever recall a solder joint that is a removable joint once its put together.


You've never unsoldered a joint before?????

It depends on your budget and designs. You can use both and the major difference on L and M Pipes is the thickness. Other than that there is no difference. People who are looking for the plumbing services can post their bids on your request on Mineeds.com and providers will post their bids on your needs.

[@#$%&[www.mineeds.com]]Los Angeles Home Repair & Lawn Services - Get Bids & Save | MiNeeds[/url]

I am a consumer not a plumber so just want to state that upfront. Some contractor said they use type "M" copper pipe which is thinner version of the copper pipe for residential re-piping project. Some contractor said they use type "L" copper pipe which is thicker and suppose to last longer but more expensive ( about 50% more ). I don't really care that much about the quality of the material as long as the copper pipe can work at least 50 years. I probably won't be living in my house after 50 years from now, and I will be lucky if I live that long. Anyone know have an opinion on the type of copper pipe to use for residential house in California?
For the pipe that is going underground, I heard one plumbing contractor said they only use PVC for underground because PVC (plastic) is less chemical reactive to anything inside the ground. Most other contractor said they will be using copper pipe for both above the ground (house) and inside the ground (street to house).
Even through PVC (plastic) is not chemically reactive to many thing I thought it is still reactive to temperature change. If the PVC pipe is bury underground doesn't it get more exposure to environmental temperature change? I think PVC is cheaper compare to copper so not sure if that is a factor in the plumber consideration. In addition, this plumber that propose to use PVC for outside the house will be matching with copper pipe inside the house. Is that normal good practice?

Hello guys, on this period i've worked with a good copper supply company about quality and prices. This is the direct link to their page if you want check out. [www.@#$%&]





[www.@#$%&]



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Choose only one that is thick enough to use with your home construction and repair needs. We have ben using C for our installation.

_______________________
Anthony McGreeve of [www.sunlinemesh.com] - eifs mesh manufacturer in Texas

And are people installing PEX sizing the piping properly? PEX has a higher friction loss per 100' and thus needs to be upsized accordingly.